Those that were denied...

Series, Teams, History, Behind the scenes etc. - all discussed here.
frieza
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Re: Unfair deaths

Post by frieza » Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:05 pm

Again, I can't help but agree. Teams 2 & 3 in series 8 were definetly the best teams that season, and it was an absolute travesty when they were killed off (esp. team 2). If they had switched the order of teams around, with teams 2 and 3 replacing say 5 or 6, then we would easily have seen a justified winner. But as for the winning team in that year...

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Re: Unfair deaths

Post by Snowcat » Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:15 pm

NE1 mind if I throw in my 2p then run like hell?!?

Cast your minds back to the opening speech of the very first episode broadcast....

Didn't Treguard refer to the Keep and its dungeon as

                                'The Castle of Confusion'

??

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1) He who sees first is the winner...
2) He who is seen first is toast...

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Re: Unfair deaths

Post by FrightKnight » Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:02 am

There's confusion, and then there's the Opposites thing with Merlin.

I would have got one out of three right, judging by when I watched it.

"Who didn't have to worry about the Ides of March?" Julius Caesar is the answer. ;)

I believe this was the last one of the three, so it took me that long to work it out and it would have been too late. I like the opposite "Excellent! Well done!" bit at the end (if my memory serves me correctly), but that was all. What a stupid game that one was.

I think Series 4 team 1 death was fair (BUT would have stopped the sword, I guess), but Series 3, team 2 was quite unfair.
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Re: Unfair deaths

Post by Fidjit » Thu Nov 06, 2003 3:09 pm

...but Series 3, team 2 was quite unfair
Quite so goodknight... McGrew said, "I'll do anything," the very second before they entered the next room which spelt their fate...
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Dan
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Re: Unfair deaths

Post by Dan » Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:08 pm

"Who didn't have to worry about the Ides of March?" Julius Caesar is the answer. ;)
The other two are:

"Who was the daughter of Uther Pendragon?"

Pickle hints strongly that he doesn't really want to know who his daughter is, and they work out it should be his son, but then answer 'God' for some reason, instead of (the future King) Arthur.

"What happened to Cinderella's coach at midday?"

It doesn't take much thought to work out or guess that he actually means 'midnight', so the answer he wanted was "It disappeared", rather than the 'it appeared' they gave.  I think they got confused and thought they had to reverse their answer as well.

Definitely a touch unfair, but they were looking for something much more devious than necessary, I think.  They just needed to think of the opposite sense of one word in each of the questions, and answer normally.

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Re: Unfair deaths

Post by Dunshelm » Sun Nov 09, 2003 12:18 am

Yes that was a bit unfair. What the hell are the Aides of March anyway?! And speaking of unfair deaths - so was the death of the Scottish team at the start of series 3.

They were extremely fast and efficient at rolling the dice in the first room, walking on and off the serpents tongue and answering all the riddles and not faffing about when you should say 'I challenge' and 'I command You' - and I reckon theres a conspiracy regarding their death, Gavin wouldn't just step forward like that!
- A distinctly magical fashion and therefore somewhat unreliable

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Re: Unfair deaths

Post by JoeGrocottJames » Sun Nov 09, 2003 12:22 am

and I reckon theres a conspiracy regarding their death, Gavin wouldn't just step forward like that!
Well, on the series guide, it mentions Gavin Gillespie signing the guestbook and saying that he died on the serpent's tongue, but was let off because the next team had not yet arrived at the studios.

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Re: Unfair deaths

Post by Dunshelm » Sun Nov 09, 2003 12:26 am

LOL. I didnt know that.

I only go by what i see in the show, but yeah he did step off hastily as if he knew where to go without being guided. Ah well...i still think he was good.
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Re: Unfair deaths

Post by Purgatory » Sun Nov 09, 2003 2:12 am

kinda stupid.. its not like Kmare was live.. they should had left them dead on the mouth and started up again once a team was good and ready..  don't see why they just wasted time and money letting the team play on a few more rooms they died and should have been left.. as i said  its wont made any difference in the finial cut.
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GrimaldineGrimwold
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Re: Unfair deaths

Post by GrimaldineGrimwold » Sun Nov 09, 2003 4:36 pm

And speaking of unfair deaths - so was the death of the Scottish team at the start of series 3.

[...] and I reckon theres a conspiracy regarding their death, Gavin wouldn't just step forward like that!
Yep, as others have said, they'd already died once before. However, Gavin has said that it's the editing that makes it look like it's his fault on the quicksand death, so perhaps it's not his fault but the fault of one of his advisors and we just don't hear that in the final edit. As you say, it would be pretty odd for him to just take a big step forward like that.  
"Sometimes of the Grey, but always of the Green, dearie. Shurrup Brollachan! Have you seen Festus, my dear? I need to take him back to Cornwall. " [cackle]

GrimaldineGrimwold
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Re: Unfair deaths

Post by GrimaldineGrimwold » Sun Nov 09, 2003 4:49 pm

kinda stupid.. its not like Kmare was live.. they should had left them dead on the mouth and started up again once a team was good and ready..  don't see why they just wasted time and money letting the team play on a few more rooms they died and should have been left.. as i said  its wont made any difference in the finial cut.
Hmm, I don't think they really wasted time and money doing so. In fact, probably the reverse. What the production team needed was enough good material to fill 16 (or whatever) episodes of a fixed length. If they'd let Team 1 die and just sat around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the next team to arrive, they'd have got no closer to achieving that final end product, whereas- although it might be slightly "unfair" to hardcore fans- if they let them carry on they're still getting footage on tape that could be used. I mean, there's not much point in them all waiting around in the studio for the next team to arrive, especially when a lot of the people there are being paid to do so. I guess budgets were tight and thus people weren't on lengthy contracts to keep costs down to the absolute minimum. Thus it makes sense while you have the studio and you have the actors and all the production staff to film whenever you legally can.  

We do need to remember sometimes that the KM team were making a television show and thus it has to be watchable and cost-effective. While fairness is important- the show would lose a lot of credibility if it was blatantly unfair- I can see why teams were let off, why some parts of the dungeon were occasionally made easier so that teams would stand a good chance of winning occasionally and so those spiffy final rooms weren't wasted in their creation.
"Sometimes of the Grey, but always of the Green, dearie. Shurrup Brollachan! Have you seen Festus, my dear? I need to take him back to Cornwall. " [cackle]

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Re: Unfair deaths

Post by Brangwen » Mon Nov 10, 2003 12:52 am

thats a good point,
id just would like to see someone die in the 1st room lol, or in another really stupid situation.

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Re: Unfair deaths

Post by Cull » Mon Nov 10, 2003 8:21 pm

thats a good point,
id just would like to see someone die in the 1st room lol, or in another really stupid situation.
Well, I think we'd all love to see one of those. :) Just another of those things we'd almost certainly never see though! ;)

On the Gavin argument... well, I'd have liked to have seen the death on the Serpent's Tongue rather than the Quicksand death... was there anyhting regarding clue items they may/may not have had that stopped the Serpent room from just being shifted to later? That way, the team could have worked through a couple of other rooms to be "padded" in before the Serpent room instead...

Though I agree with what the KM staff did - whether they used the footage or not, they may as well use that free time to film a couple more rooms in case they needed them. All the better for lucky Gavin - he got to play a couple of extra rooms! :)

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Re: Unfair deaths

Post by MrP » Tue Nov 11, 2003 11:45 am

Though I agree with what the KM staff did - whether they used the footage or not, they may as well use that free time to film a couple more rooms in case they needed them. All the better for lucky Gavin - he got to play a couple of extra rooms! :)
I think Gavin probably had a unique 'status' with the production team after being given a reprieve. i think he was probably going to be given the chance to get as far as he could, but with a massive extra degree of harshness - one step out of place and he's dead. The swamp being a perfect example - I think any other team would have been allowed to get away with that, or at least given a hint by Treguard to avoid the swamp.

I think the simple reason for giving Gavin a second chance was because there's no way Broadsword could justify any amount of studio time, actor's time, production staff time, high-technolgy equipment in use etc. without a team being there to be filmed!

Just to throw my hat in the ring on other topics mentioned here.. the main thread running through all points raised (McGrew's DANCE, Mogdred's BUT and Merlin's backward questions) is that there seems to be some inconsistency in the assistance given to the team by Treguard/Pickle.

As has been rightly pointed out, it should have been made immediately obvious to the team that McGrew needed to be shown mercy. As far as they knew he was a dangerous enemy and they simply had to dispose of him - either McGrew should have immediately declared that he'd do anything to help them or Treguard should have drawn their attention to what he was saying.

As for the 'But' spell - a simple hint that they needed to use magic "quickly" would have been enough of a hint. Or at the very least Hordriss should have indicated when 'But' could be used. How were they to know that 'But' needed to be used before 'Transformation'?

The backwards questions was another example of the team clearly not understanding what part they were supposed to play in the challenge before them - admittedly they didn't have a clue what the answer was to the first two questions, backwards or otherwise, so the argument is futile, but I do think they should have been told that they didn't have to give backwards answers themselves.

It's like football referees - all we're asking for is a bit of consistency!  :)
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Re: Unfair deaths

Post by GrimaldineGrimwold » Wed Nov 12, 2003 2:42 am


I think Gavin probably had a unique 'status' with the production team after being given a reprieve. i think he was probably going to be given the chance to get as far as he could, but with a massive extra degree of harshness - one step out of place and he's dead. The swamp being a perfect example - I think any other team would have been allowed to get away with that, or at least given a hint by Treguard to avoid the swamp.

I think the simple reason for giving Gavin a second chance was because there's no way Broadsword could justify any amount of studio time, actor's time, production staff time, high-technolgy equipment in use etc. without a team being there to be filmed!
Yep, I agree. Your second paragraph here is what I've been saying in a rather more long-winded fashion. I do agree on Gavin and Co. too- I guess once they've made a mistake they're unlikely to be given the benefit of the doubt on other occasions. I'm not sure how unique it was, however- there's a few teams who have admitted having died twice, as it were. If we actually heard from all the teams taking part (and they were all completely honest!) I think there'd be a few more too. Being now a cynical old bald wizard- crone composite, I get suspicious on all the occasions when the shot suddenly changes to the advisors when the dungeoneer is marching headlong toward a pit.

I agree on consistency too- although, as I've also said elsewhere, we have to remember the pressures of making a TV show in not enough time, and quick production, originality, excitement and consistency aren't always willing bedfellows.
"Sometimes of the Grey, but always of the Green, dearie. Shurrup Brollachan! Have you seen Festus, my dear? I need to take him back to Cornwall. " [cackle]

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