Knightmare.com

hi, just read this thread (12/07/06) and done a search on ebay for knightmare. there is still someone selling 'the complete series on dvd'. i have send a kind message.
i would love to see the official release but not paying for someones dodgy copies

I've read the majority of the thread through now and I'm kind of in two minds about the whole thing...

firstly, why is an official release of Knightmare never going to happen... by that I mean they've released other kids' shows years and years after they were on TV... Dungeons and Dragons being a good example... so what makes it so certain that it'll never happen with Knightmare...?

Secondly, surely making copies of stuff you've recorded on TV and passing them on is no more illegal than recording the programmes and then lending the tape to a friend to watch? OK, it's kinda immoral to make copies and sell them on... but then again, how many people obey the law to the letter all the time anyway?

Say you've got about 8 or 9 episodes recorded off the TV... is it illegal to keep them?

I'd hate to see any official releases scuppered because of loads of unoffical copies flying about, but I can see where the 'pirates' are coming from... how many other kids' shows with this kind of following never get a release?

Moist_Mog wrote:why is an official release of Knightmare never going to happen... by that I mean they've released other kids' shows years and years after they were on TV... Dungeons and Dragons being a good example... so what makes it so certain that it'll never happen with Knightmare...?

Well, it's not certain I suppose, but if you look at all the threads on the What Knext? board, you'll see just how many attempts fans have made to persuade Granada Ventures to release it, and most of them have been met with abject silence. Between online petitions and bombarding them with letters, we've been trying to convince them for about six or seven years. If it really were going to happen, I'm sure there'd be some sign of it by now.

Secondly, surely making copies of stuff you've recorded on TV and passing them on is no more illegal than recording the programmes and then lending the tape to a friend to watch?

And the thing is, strictly speaking, that is illegal.

Say you've got about 8 or 9 episodes recorded off the TV... is it illegal to keep them?

Yes. It's illegal to retain possession of any unauthorised recording beyond 72 hours. Whether it's morally acceptable is another matter.

I'd hate to see any official releases scuppered because of loads of unoffical copies flying about, but I can see where the 'pirates' are coming from... how many other kids' shows with this kind of following never get a release?

This is a point that has been rather 'done-to-death' over the years. Knightmare is one of the programmes that could probably be classed as 'Abandonware' i.e. a show that has effectively been abandoned by its creators and broadcasters, and which, so long as no one makes a profit from it, can be distributed fairly freely. As long as there are no profits involved, and no prospect of an official commercial release, that would appear morally fairly sound.

However, there is no definition of 'Abandonware' in Law, and that means that any video distribution of the programme, for profit or otherwise, is illegal. The moral argument is all very well, but it won't make it any more legal. That's why the practise of tape copying will never be encouraged on this forum, while profiting from it will always be loudly - and rightly - condemned.

Annoyingly, this bloke (http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI ... dback:2:uk) has sold loads of sets of the complete 8 series, at £35 a go...now, I want them. But £35? Seems ridiculous. Especially as it's illegal and unofficial. How annoying.

One thing I can't work out is that he's selling all 8 series on 8 DVDs. That equates to 1 DVD per series.

Now, as far as I know, you can get up to 4 hours worth of footage onto a single DVD. An episode of Knightmare usually lasted for about 25 minutes, which means 8 or 9 episodes of Knightmare on a single disc. Now, considering series 2-7 all ran for about 15/16 episodes, how on earth does he cram an entire series worth of episodes onto a single DVD?

Forgive me if the answer is a lot simpler that I thought it would be, but I'm not exactly the brightest spark when it comes to the technical side of things.

If you would like to know what exactly I'm talking about:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/KNIGHTMARE-COMPLE ... dZViewItem

JamesA wrote: One thing I can't work out is that he's selling all 8 series on 8 DVDs. That equates to 1 DVD per series.

Now, as far as I know, you can get up to 4 hours worth of footage onto a single DVD.

A standard DVD recorder will quite happily do 6 hours onto a disc. Still not enough for a 16-episode series, but if he's shoved the episode through some editing software (to remove adverts, for example) then it would be a simple matter to compress the recordings down to a lower quality so that one season could easily fit on a disc.

EDIT: Not that I'm condoning what's being done, just explaining how it's possible.

HStorm wrote:

Moist_Mog wrote:Secondly, surely making copies of stuff you've recorded on TV and passing them on is no more illegal than recording the programmes and then lending the tape to a friend to watch?

And the thing is, strictly speaking, that is illegal.

Say you've got about 8 or 9 episodes recorded off the TV... is it illegal to keep them?

Yes. It's illegal to retain possession of any unauthorised recording beyond 72 hours. Whether it's morally acceptable is another matter.

From http://www.patent.gov.uk/copy/c-applies/c-tvfilm.htm

"A recording of a broadcast does not infringe copyright if it is made in your own home to watch later. For any other use you may need the permission for the rights holder, unless copyright exceptions apply."

So recording a programme off TV is a legal and authorised recording under UK law.

From http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyr ... yright_law

"7. Restricted Acts
It is an offence to perform any of the following acts without the consent of the owner:
Copy the work.
Rent, lend or issue copies of the work to the public.
Perform, broadcast or show the work in public.
Adapt the work.

8. Acts that are allowed
...
Recording of broadcasts for the purposes of listening to or viewing at a more convenient time, this is known as 'time shifting'."

Emphasis mine. So lending a recording to your mates is not allowed, but there is no 72-hour restriction on watching a recording, at least in the UK.

Admittedly, the law I was quoting was how things stood about ten years ago, and I remember there was debate at the time about relaxing them, as they were completely impossible to enforce. (I'm certainly not surprised to learn that they've been changed. )

abraxxus wrote: i would love to see the official release but not paying for someones dodgy copies

The 'dodgy' copies are of excellent viewing quality to be honest, and I can't see there being much pedantic law enforcement regarding this issue, whether it's illegal or not.

It's the old cliché, but it's true - there are real criminals out there who are up to no good. Are the police really going to waste resources to track people down who are selling DVDs of a kid's TV programme which is nearly 20 years old?

Laws can be quoted left right and centre, it's just a shame there is no charter for common sense in Britain.

The views expressed in this post do not neccesarily reflect those of the board.

Sorry, but the only reason these people can sell this material on ebay is because people are buying it, ergo people want it.

If the company behind the show isn't going to release the material for sale and just sit on the IP then that's there problem. What sales are they losing out on? Future sales? If no one, anywhere, was even so much as bootlegging then the market would be registering zero interest for the product and they'd have even less reason to publish.

Frankly, unless someone publishes the damn thing I don't have the slightest sympathy for any of the companies or individuals involved. Release it, or stop complaining. Either way, I'm going to find a way to relive my happy memories, and if you're not going to provide that way then I *will* resort to ebay.

Basically, put up or shut up.

have to agree. i too am against piracy when the media is already readily available, hense you are reducing the profits/revenue of the distributers/owners, but when something is clearly not going to be available - i dont see why not - its born out of fandom not malice.

i do however understand the mods, they have to keep the discussion legal, i bet they secretly have their own copies though!

I got no doubt the mods and senior members will have their own copies but I can understand why they have to tread safely else this site itself could end up in legal trouble.

I just hope one day dvds become available until then I will have to make do with challenge.

if you read my other topic you saw i was looking on ebay.co.uk for the knightmare board game and saw this one that is perfect : http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0165750157

i looked more on ebay.co.uk for other knightmare things and i saw someone selling knightmare on dvd. i know it was not release on dvd in any country and it is not legale to sell pirate dvd :X. i think seller must also know it is not legale because he hides the names of people bidding for the dvd: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0173404823

i like looking on ebay but you must beware unhonest sellers like for the dvd.

sorry for bad english!

the person selling the knightmare dvd is going to earn at least £38 for selling not legale dvd! i think that is not right.

I tried to report it, but the site insists that only people with an ebay account can do so, and I don't have one. Truth be told though, this happens an awful lot, and there seems to be no way of stopping it.