When Did Knightmare "Jump The Shark" For You?

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GrandDizzy
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Re: When Did Knightmare "Jump The Shark" For You?

Post by GrandDizzy »

"When did Knightmare jump the shark"?

For me, this is a no-brainer. When I was 14 I saw the shark being jumped right before my eyes and I was very disappointed. It happened in series 4 when they suddenly went from using beautiful, atmospheric painted backdrops to instead using…

ARTIFICIALLY-COLOURED PHOTOS (I presume they were photos, though the quality was so poor it wouldn't surprise me if they were interlaced video stills).

All at once, the series went from beautiful to ugly. It went from exciting rooms you wanted to explore, to inhospitable rooms that just looked disgusting and (no pun intended) "nightmarish". And to be more specific, I will give you 6 exact reasons why I hated the photos…

1) To me, it looked REALLY cheap and obviously done to save money.
2) Using real photos completely removed all the sense of fantasy. It just looked grotty and imperfect. All the romance was gone.
3) The illustrations had always been beautifully lit, making them look dynamic and exciting. But the real-world locations (especially outdoor ones) were just plain and looked totally "flat".
4) While rooms had traditionally had natural, earthy colours, they were replaced with weird, unnatural colours (ie a LOT of purple). Yes, series 3 had started to use more vivid colours here and there, but it still always looked like you were on planet earth. When we get to series 4 though, suddenly everything was purple and looked like an alien world.
5) The images also looked "unnatural" in a different sense, not because of the choice of colours, but the way the photos had been altered. Now with a lot of care and skill it is possible to turn a photo of a castle purple and make it still look natural and realistic. However, when you do this crudely (and I'm not blaming the designer as I'm sure resources were limited) you just end up with something that looks artificial. It just looks like a bad effect.
6) Finally, the way the colour had been digitally changed drastically reduced the quality of the image. They used limited palettes, resulting in HEAVY loss of detail, colour banding, and general "murkiness". It just looked incredibly cheap and nasty, even to my 14-year-old eyes (and I dare say the eyes of most viewers).

I LIKED THE DWARF TUNNELS
Now for the record, I must say the dwarf tunnels (and mine cart) in series 3 never bothered me in the slightest, in fact I really liked them. So why did I like dwarf tunnels? My reasons are:

1) I adored the use of sound effect and music in them. It was incredibly atmospheric, and when they were first introduced I found them VERY exciting.
2) They were not "the actual game", just brief interludes to give a little variety and relief between rooms. (Had they played a larger part, I might have started to find them objectionable.)
3) They may not have been David Rowe illustrations, but they were still "computer illustrations" of a kind—as opposed to grotty real-life imagery.
4) The dwarf tunnels were visually attractive: clean, clear, and not washed out. They may not have used "natural tones" but at least the colours didn't look false.

So for me there was a definitive point when Knightmare really went downhill, and that was series 4. I am not saying I don't like the series after this, of course not. But the photos really spoilt it for me.
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Re: When Did Knightmare "Jump The Shark" For You?

Post by wombstar »

Well nothing will beat proper painted backgrounds in my opinion.
The photographs, and the more updated CG rooms in later years were always weak points to a degree.. it made things even less believable.

But it made up for it with cool characters, interesting story lines and some awesome puzzles.

I was never a huge fan of the exterior locations.
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Re: When Did Knightmare "Jump The Shark" For You?

Post by pjmlfc05 »

I think every series had it's flaws so I don't think Knightmare jumped the shark but series 8 seemed to go back to the early series and for me went full circle. I did like David's illustrations but also liked some of the rooms used in later series and the dwarf tunnels were better in series 6. More realistic and more scary I thought.
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Re: When Did Knightmare "Jump The Shark" For You?

Post by wombstar »

Yeah the dwarf tunnels with the weird looking bats was a an odd addition to the show.
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Re: When Did Knightmare "Jump The Shark" For You?

Post by stockholmsyndrome »

The out door backdrops were hit and miss, some of the shots worked well and they created an ambient feel, others looked like bland English Heritage post cards on acid.

The show had a very good innings, 7 or 8 years is a mini eternity when your a kid, there were natural highs and lows, my interest levels varied, but with each series having something to offer.
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Re: When Did Knightmare "Jump The Shark" For You?

Post by TimeMaster »

I was never a fan of the dwarf tunnels. For me personally they didn't add any suspense and just interrupted the flow of play.

Have to agree on the painted backdrops - definitely the most atmospheric sets that were used - and striking works of art.
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Re: When Did Knightmare "Jump The Shark" For You?

Post by Gretel »

It never actually jumped for me (and yes, I know I'm a very new fan but I have tracked down some of the later seasons through friends who videoed them earlier...)

I do cringe when Majida starts getting all jumpy but she's starting to slowly win me over.
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Re: When Did Knightmare "Jump The Shark" For You?

Post by Skarkill »

As someone who's first exposure to Knightmare was with Season 4 and who didn't see Series 3 till repeats on the Sci-Fi Channel and only saw series 1&2 much later still with their original run on Challenge TV, I do feel I have to mount some kind of defense of the later seasons.

(Well save for series 8 which as a whole, individual parts are fine, is indefensible ;D )


I'll try and deal with all the issues that have been raised at different points in this thread in regard to Series 4 and onwards.


Issue 1, The Eyesheild/Outdoor scenes:

Lets deal with one of the biggest ones first the Outdoor scenes and The Eyesheild. Yes there a departure from the first three seasons, yes and argument could be made they diminish the sense of fear that the show had (I disagree but I'll come to that in a moment.)But I don't think they were all that bad that they could be called a 'jumping the shark moment.'

The Eyesheild and its sequences were annoying, without a doubt, Ill say that right off the bat I don't think the production team managed to make them palatable till series 6 onwards they did at times seriously disrupt game flow and were dull to watch but then again so were the dwarf tunnels sequences in Series 3 (IMO.) It was an experiment that for what ever reason stuck around and became synonymous with Knightmare that it was hard not to think of it without thinking of The Eyesheild. (That said I was glad not to see it make a return in the Geek Week episode ;) )

As for the outdoor scenes I don't think they detracted from the show in anyway. We knew from the outset that the Dungeon was magical in nature so to learn in Series 4 that its influence had spread beyond the confines of Dunselhelm Castle into other Castles, areas and realms isn't that much of a leap. The Dungeoneer still has to survive this new realm in order to triumph at the end and there is still the threat of death at any moment due to a mistake.


Doesn't really (I don't think) make much of a difference if that threat is due to not being able to get past Gumboil or Gibbet due to failure to gain knowledge from Granitas or because the Team hasn't got the right Causeway combination or they have made the wrong trade with Julius Scaramounger all that's changed is the setting is now not a dungeon room but say the streets of Wolfenden...the overall threat that death is just around the corner remained the setting was just different.


Issue 2, No longer claustrophobic = not as scary :

This seems to be a frequent complaint/issue/gripe with Series 4-7 that because there not just confined the a dungeon setting its somehow less scary.

I would argue its just a different type of fear that the production team were trying to instill in the teams and viewers. Instead of the claustrophobic one of series 1-3 (And it could be claimed to some extent 8) Series 4-7 to me seem to play more towards inducing fear from the fact that the dungeoneer was constantly being pursued almost from the moment the quest started by Lord Fear's minions; Skarkill or Raptor (much as I loathe that character) with the Goblins, Sylvester Hands, The Dreadnought and later the Red Dragon Bhal-Sheba.

Also added to this the fact that Lord Fear was constantly setting traps like causeways and blockers to catch out the Dungeoneer creates (IMO) an atmosphere that could be just as frighting as the claustrophobic one of the earlier seasons...just a different type of fear.


Issue 3, Treguard becoming less sinister:

....Yeah I'll not argue on this one I much prefer the slight more ambiguous Treguard to the one we see later on especially Series 7-8.


Issue 4, Storyline vs Original Format:

Now I don't think either style of Knightmare the Series 1-3 one or the Series 4-8 one is better then the other I truly don't.

BUT

If I really had to pick one or the other I would pick the later seasons and the reason for this is I find the characters and the settings they are in (and by extension the quests of the Dungeoneers) to be far more engaging. I love the little hints of a 'bigger story' that really start to creep in more frequently with series 4.

eg. Gundrada being on a quest of her own that just happens to have brought her into the Knightmare realm.

Malice's alluding to a power struggle going on behind the scenes of The Opposition.

Lord Fear and other's mentions of The Grimwold Family post series 3.

The talked about but never seen Count Brinkatore

Places like The Great Snake Pit that were mentioned but never seen.

The implication that it was Gwendoline that cost Skarkill his eye and of a continuing rivalry between them as a result.


These kind of things fired my imagination as a child watching Knightmare and still do to this day, far more then the majority of things from the first three seasons do (Not saying nothing from series 1-3 hasn't fried my imagination or entertaining me just not as much as the later seasons)

I also like how some characters even had there own personal storylines for example Julius Scaramounger.

I love that you can trace his story from beginning to end starting from the first episode of series 5 as the dungeon realms premier (if rather dodgy) trader and merchant right through his strengthening links with Lord Fear and The Opposition as the series progresses. To the start of the end for him when Ah Wok arrives in episode 1 of Series 6, through Julius becoming a fully fledged Opposition minion with his attempt to have Ah Wok killed and his deep involvement in the Red Death plot right up till the very end of his story when he is left a broken, penniless and washed up drunk in the penultimate episode of series 6.

Now this never really happened in the early seasons Gumboil kind of had a similar ending but with him it just kind of....happened one moment he was a dangerous if not to bright dungeon villain...next he's a washed up drunk...there was no between as to how this happened.



There I think I've answered all the issues...if I've missed any please let me know and also please let me know if you disagree with me on any of the points I've made after all this is simply my opinion on the matter. :)



Oh and as for if and when I think Knightmare 'jumped the shark'...well I don't really think it did per say but the one change to the shows format I could NEVER abide because it to me it went against one of the key factors of the show, was the introduction in Series 7 of 'Seeing Eye Spells.'

The Dungeoneer should NEVER be able to see for any reason period.
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Re: When Did Knightmare "Jump The Shark" For You?

Post by knightmaredave »

One comment from me- it never did, but i must admit i was dissapointed in the rushed end of series 8, that last team could have had a special mission, i actually really like series 8, good graphics, new characters, snapper jack was one of my favourites, new puzzles, fire ball room coming back as did play your cards wrong as i call it, it moved on substantially, the only thing was level 1 looked a bit samey room wise level 3 was something different, spooky,plus the storylines were well embedded to make level 2 a do right or die kinda quest again,
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Re: When Did Knightmare "Jump The Shark" For You?

Post by wombstar »

One comment from me- it never did, but i must admit i was dissapointed in the rushed end of series 8
That's true, but then after having a big finale for series 6 and 7 I guess it made a change to just let this one run out. Quite fitting really as it was the finial ever episode. For now.
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Re: When Did Knightmare "Jump The Shark" For You?

Post by FaveWorstKnightmare »

Interesting thread.

I started watching in Series 3 and that remains my favourite, but maybe that’s just nostalgia.

For me Knightmare jumped the shark when the lifeforce became a pie with a slice or two taken out of it. The pulsating sequence of, was it serious 1-6?, which ended with a scary skull image at the end of a quest, was then watered down to the skeleton with bits falling off, and then just a photo of a pie.
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Re: When Did Knightmare "Jump The Shark" For You?

Post by Pooka »

FaveWorstKnightmare wrote: 12 Feb 2021, 23:04 For me Knightmare jumped the shark when the lifeforce became a pie with a slice or two taken out of it. The pulsating sequence of, was it serious 1-6?, which ended with a scary skull image at the end of a quest, was then watered down to the skeleton with bits falling off, and then just a photo of a pie.
The original 'face' life force was used from series 1 to 5, with additional use in series 6 as a death animation - the walking armour/skeleton one was used from series 6 to 7. I'm with you insofar as the pie was the worst one; in fact, it seemed superfluous. Food was, by this point, a hangover from the earlier series (and less important, since they were now using the knapsack for clue objects!); I very clearly remember not realising that the pie was a life force indicator and wondering exactly what it was!

Like so many others in this thread, I don't really think Knightmare jumped the shark at any point, but then I need to point out the fact that I watched the series in the wrong order.

I was two when Knightmare started and wouldn't have really started watching it until around series 4 or 5. I was still in primary school when series 8 ended (although I sent in an SAE anyway!) and, although I have fond memories of those times, I had never seen any of the earlier series. I did eventually catch series 1 to 4 on Sci-Fi (although they didn't indicate which series was being shown at the time, but I did see it all), and the closest thing I got to a 'shark-jumping' moment was realising the fact that at the beginning of the programme there was no Lord Fear! I'd just assumed he was always the Big Bad!

Now I'm much older and have seen every episode multiple times, in the correct order, there are clearly some moments where Knightmare changed noticeably, but I wouldn't say it jumped the shark:

(i) Outdoor Scenes
This was a staggering difference and probably the biggest switch in the whole run of all eight series: going outside. I remember Tim saying in a TES interview that "in some ways it was necessary to make those changes", which I kind of understand - there was a need to keep things fresh, and if series 4 had been exactly the same as series 3 it wouldn't be seen as innovative any more! Although I'm not fond of the purple tint, I don't mind the existence of outdoor scenes, but it wouldn't be until series 5 that I think they used them to their full potential.

(ii) Extra Equipment
This has always been a bone of contention, but I don't really mind the Eye Shield as an object. My biggest problem with series 1 to 3 was how slowly it moved - navigation out of a room once the team had dealt with whatever the room presented was repetitive and tedious - and the Eye Shield helped to move the quest along at a quicker pace. The passive paths may have been too long, but I understand the need to hurry the teams up a bit.
I also don't have any problems with the Reach wand aside from the fact that it was obviously a mouse pointer! With modern technology, that could have been done much better.

(iii) Dragon Flights
I haven't got a problem with this, either - how many people can genuinely say they've ridden on the back of a dragon?

(iv) CGI
Knightmare was innovative in a way that few other programmes ever were, and one of the ways it remained so was that it moved with the times. In some ways, Knightmare's CGI transition seemed seamless - a little in S4, more in S5, more in S6 and quite a lot in S7 - and the biggest jump happened in series 8, where everything was CGI and back in the dungeon (for the most part!).
But I think that, in many ways, although that was a noticeable shirt, it wasn't jarring - it was just the way things were going. A growing boy with my SNES on hand, I was noticing the improvements in graphical rendering (Donkey Kong Country came out in 1994 and looked fantastic), and Knightmare doing the same just seemed natural!

What might be an interesting thing to do is to watch the series in REVERSE order (8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1) and see if you are noticing the changes more or less obviously - or even if there is a shark jumping moment that way around!
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Re: When Did Knightmare "Jump The Shark" For You?

Post by Beltane »

For me, the opposite happened to "jumping the shark", although I'm aware that I'm stretching the definition a bit.

Knightmare started out as a dark, dingy, claustophobic experience which I absolutely loved precisely because it was frightening. I still love the earlier seasons for thatnow. By season 8 it had been watered down. I don't want to sound ungrateful because any Knightmare is good Knightmare, but for me personally, season 8 felt a bit...
  • "That big scary skull Life Force sprite was too much for little children. So was the walking skeleton-knight. Let's show you a nice pie to track your Life Force, because when it runs out, you're hungry. You see?"
  • Being able to put clue objects in the bag just muddied the waters for me. Does anyone remember that part in series 5 or 6 when Hordriss, disguised as Harris the Beggar, put a book in the dungeoneer's knapsack and had to reassure them that it wouldn't be digested? That's a nice little mechanic that the Knightmare team created out of almost nothing. How many times have you felt anxious about someone putting certain objects in a bag? I admit that my first reaction was "Let's let the little darlings put things in the bag so they don't have to hold them" but in truth it was probably more to do with letting the dungeoneer keep their hands free to use Reach
  • Snapper-jack as a character came off as patronising, much like the Life Force pie. Thing is, his voice and tone and general weirdness could have made him a fantastic character! So I think it's such a shame they did the hand-puppet thing, and that if they just removed that then they'd have had some extremely unsettling for dungeoneers to deal with
  • Special mention for that one scene where Brother Strange uses magic to open the trap-door to level 2. I forget his exact words but it's something along the lines of "this is a very dangerous moment. You must keep very still" before he stalks around the door, knocks it with his staff, and it opens. It just fell so flat to me. How could this possibly feel dangerous? Compare that with "Harris" putting the book in the knapsack where it was fairly clear what the potential danger was. Perhaps if they'd introduced a mechanic where something dangerous might be lurking on the opposite side of that trap-door that the dungeoneer had to get rid of without encountering it direclty then it could have worked brilliantly.
  • It felt like there was just too much CGI. Yet, even this I think is forgiveable because one of Lord Fear's main strengths was his willingness to innovate. This too could have been utilised better. We as viewers were expected to ignore the obvious CGI, but what if there'd been some cover-story that Lord Fear had extended his influence even into Level 1 so that it looked like his territory but his magic there was weak? That could be explored so much, but what could Lord Fear have done under those circumstances? Generally unnerved the dungeoneer? Created the illusion of monsters where really there were none? Nettled clue room guardians into asking harder questions?
Like I say, I don't want to come across as ungrateful for any Knightmare show. I just think the above could have been better used.
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