Re:Series 1 Episode 1

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Re: Series 1 Episode 1

Post by Drassil » Tue May 07, 2013 5:49 pm

I hope I'm not jumping the crossbow by posting some thoughts about the first quest before Challenge repeats it.

Interesting how the advisors call their dungeoneer "David" and also "Jock" - surely a nickname related to his being a Scot dwelling south of the border. Nicknames were a rarity among Knightmare teams.

At the end of reciting the first riddle, Olgarth gives us a one-word impression of Popeye. Is it pure coincidence that the chemical symbol for silver, as in spurs of squiredom, is also the syllabic basis of Popeye's laugh?

Treguard implies that three truths might have led to Olgarth giving "magic" to the team. I wonder what it would have been. The ideas of a wall monster giving out a spell, and of a spell being inessential, are both odd ones.
Billy wrote:"Justice lies on the right" was what Olgarth said, yet the correct Talisman was placed in front of the left door. That goes to show how hard the early series were, especially this one, as answering one riddle wrong in Level 1 lead to death.
In the past, I've assumed that Olgarth's advice was for the team to go right. But it's then impossible to reconcile what he said with the fact that, in the team's first left-or-right situation, the talisman matched the Great Corridor's left-hand exit symbol (a rune called gar) and indicated that left was correct. However, if we interpret "justice lies on the right" as meaning "justice is false on the right [so true justice is on the left]", then Olgarth's statement complements the symbol clue rather than conflicting with it. We can only speculate on what the team would have encountered through the right-hand exit - an instant-death bomb room perhaps - but it would seem that not taking the lamp had put them in losing status anyway.

It's also possible that, irrespective of their clue object choices, the team were on a second chance, or in losing status, through doubly bungling the pick-up itself. They were going to leave without any clue objects until Treguard stopped them; then David nearly put the ruby in his knapsack, which would have led to it being "consumed" and unavailable as a gift for Lillith. (As an attractive gift at any rate.) Once a team is in losing status, in a sense it doesn't matter what happens to them and why, because a dead end has been laid down for them somewhere ahead.

From the Knightmare pilot script, upon which this first quest was based, we can be confident that the room in which the quest ended would indeed have turned out to be a wellway room. In the pilot script, the wellway was guarded by Richard Bonehill's scimitar-wielding chromakey guard, but that was never incorporated into Series 1, so we can only speculate on who or what was lurking under cover of darkness. Just because we never saw Mogdred in Series 1...

The dungeoneer's final action of the quest is quite fitting, for Knightmare too was destined to uphold its charm. To paraphrase Elton John, the Campbell burned out long before the legend ever did.

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Re: Re:Series 1 Episode 1

Post by HobGoblin » Fri May 10, 2013 10:14 pm

Ah, its brilliance was there right from the start but episode one is fascinating as we see the show finding its feet.

The production team must have been shaking their heads and thinking 'god, this will ever work, as the first team spend about 20 minutes spelling the word 'open'. But the script is adapted slightly for team two, with Treguard explicitly making the spelling point straight away. You can see the programme makers adapting and learning as they go.

It's also weird watching a team who'd never seen the show - nearly walking off with no items from the clue room!

As for the left/right thing, I think any detailed analysis probably goes far deeper than the script did. The team was probably meant to go right, but in the event it didn't matter (justice lies on the right meaning justice is false on the right seems a bit of a stretch to me).

But all the ingredients were there. Well most of them - no bells and a distinct lack of side stepping!

A wonderful mix of wall monsters, bomb rooms and disintegrating life force faces that made up some of my earliest KM memories. Great stuff.
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Re: Series 1 Episode 1

Post by Pooka » Sat May 11, 2013 2:37 pm

Drassil wrote:Treguard implies that three truths might have led to Olgarth giving "magic" to the team. I wonder what it would have been. The ideas of a wall monster giving out a spell, and of a spell being inessential, are both odd ones.
That is true, although in many cases (Akash's notwithstanding), magic wasn't really discovered that early in Level 1 - later in the level, perhaps. I can't, again with the exception of Akash, remember an incident in which magic was involved (giving or being spellcast) before the Level 1 clue room. (Feel free to contradict me if I'm wrong about that).

In my opinion, having watched this again, I genuinely think that the team were meant to go right from the Great Corridor, on account of the fact that:

a) they're always meant to go right anyway
b) the clue from Olgarth was pretty plain to me
c) the production team probably only had one charm, ergo: the symbol over the door may have been pure decoration

However, if the team were in losing status (and they probably were because they didn't take the lamp), then it's always a possibility that both doors led to the same place, and they were destined to die from the moment they left Olgarth's room - by the same way in either case.
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Re: Re:Series 1 Episode 1

Post by HobGoblin » Sat May 11, 2013 3:14 pm

I agree that the symbol on the floor was probably decoration. My interpretation is that the production team were caught off guard by this justification to go left and so later had to feed Treguard the line about it being enough to remember the symbol. It would seem very unusual for a team to have to 'use' an item they had to leave in the clue room?

Perhaps, having noticed how the team picked up on such a detail, this even inspired the intentional use of symbols to point the way in later quests.

Ah, it's fun to speculate!
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Re: Re:Series 1 Episode 1

Post by Canadanne » Sat May 11, 2013 4:54 pm

Pooka wrote:In my opinion, having watched this again, I genuinely think that the team were meant to go right from the Great Corridor, on account of the fact that:

a) they're always meant to go right anyway
b) the clue from Olgarth was pretty plain to me
c) the production team probably only had one charm, ergo: the symbol over the door may have been pure decoration

However, if the team were in losing status (and they probably were because they didn't take the lamp), then it's always a possibility that both doors led to the same place, and they were destined to die from the moment they left Olgarth's room - by the same way in either case.
HobGoblin wrote:I agree that the symbol on the floor was probably decoration. My interpretation is that the production team were caught off guard by this justification to go left and so later had to feed Treguard the line about it being enough to remember the symbol. It would seem very unusual for a team to have to 'use' an item they had to leave in the clue room?
I totally agree with the above theories - that they should have gone right as per Olgarth's clue, that going right would have led to the same dark room, and that the line about remembering the symbol was added in because the team had mistakenly thought it was a clue.

Since the talisman was the unneeded item on the table, it's also possible that it was put there as a deliberate red herring, leading them to disregard the hint they'd been given. There certainly was another talisman prop with the right-hand symbol that they could have used instead.

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Re: Series 1 Episode 1

Post by Drassil » Sat May 11, 2013 5:54 pm

Pooka wrote:In many cases (Akash's notwithstanding), magic wasn't really discovered that early in Level 1 - later in the level, perhaps. I can't, again with the exception of Akash, remember an incident in which magic was involved (giving or being spellcast) before the Level 1 clue room. (Feel free to contradict me if I'm wrong about that).
DRINK in Series 3 was cast by Cliff's team to gain access to the clue room. JOKE in Series 4 was given to Jeremy's team before they encountered any clue objects. And DASH in Series 4 was cast by Giles' team just prior to reaching Oakley.
Pooka wrote:In my opinion, having watched this again, I genuinely think that the team were meant to go right from the Great Corridor, on account of the fact that:

a) they're always meant to go right anyway
b) the clue from Olgarth was pretty plain to me
Two correct answers and the only reward the team gets is advice they'd probably have read in the Adventurer's Code anyway? Thank goodness wall monsters became more charitable over time. ;)
Pooka wrote:c) the production team probably only had one charm, ergo: the symbol over the door may have been pure decoration
As Annie points out above, the production team did have talismans matching both Great Corridor symbols. We first saw the other talisman just two quests later - in which it had a significance that was more than decorative.
HobGoblin wrote:My interpretation is that the production team were caught off guard by this justification to go left and so later had to feed Treguard the line about it being enough to remember the symbol.
In the Knightmare pilot script, Treguard tells the team in the clue room itself that 'one of these present [objects] is merely a symbol. It is enough to merely remember it'. While this concept did make it into Quest 1, it seems that it led to complications that the production team, as you say, had not fully anticipated. Unfortunately, the Great Corridor portion of the pilot script appears not to allow for free will on the team's part, so the script doesn't shed quite enough light as I wish it did (ironic metaphor not intended). And in the absence of production notes for the Series 1 quests, speculation, however fanciful, is a fan's prerogative. :)
Pooka wrote:If the team were in losing status (and they probably were because they didn't take the lamp), then it's always a possibility that both doors led to the same place, and they were destined to die from the moment they left Olgarth's room - by the same way in either case.
Agreed - especially as it was a superbly creepy demise that did much to help Knightmare to set out its stall from the word go (or rather, from the word enter). And yet if the team had taken the right-hand corridor exit, it would have meant a mismatch of symbols. Perhaps Treguard could have explained it with a pre-mortem remark along the lines of: "You shouldn't have picked up the talisman in favour of the lamp, team. In fact you should have ignored the talisman completely, for it was a red herring. Another correct answer to Olgarth's riddles and he'd have told you so."

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Re: Series 1 Episode 1

Post by Canadanne » Sat May 11, 2013 7:00 pm

Drassil wrote:
HobGoblin wrote:My interpretation is that the production team were caught off guard by this justification to go left and so later had to feed Treguard the line about it being enough to remember the symbol.
In the Knightmare pilot script, Treguard tells the team in the clue room itself that 'one of these present [objects] is merely a symbol. It is enough to merely remember it'.
Oh, that's interesting! Darn, I really thought HobGoblin was onto something there.

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Re: Re:Series 1 Episode 1

Post by pjmlfc05 » Sat May 11, 2013 10:35 pm

The team was advised 'Justice lies on the right' but at the same time there was no obvious clue to take the lamp. So even if David did go right instead of left, he was still in losing status. For me David's death was harsh.Still the haunting music during his demise was cool!
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Re: Re:Series 1 Episode 1

Post by HobGoblin » Sat May 11, 2013 10:51 pm

That's interesting re. the pilot. On David Rowe's website we can see that the symbols are part of the painting (rather than separate graphics) which is why I assumed they were decorative. Were the paintings commissioned to match the puzzles or vice versa?

As for the death music - glad they got rid of it!
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Re: Re:Series 1 Episode 1

Post by wombstar » Sun May 12, 2013 9:34 pm

Disagree with everyone here, they had to turn left, the symbol was more than just a 'decoration' and it was even hinted at they could have memorized it.

As foe the clue at turning right, well this depends who's right, it was the right hand door for the wall monster.

I would guess his spell would have been for a well, which the team who have cast had they taking the light, but without the spell they would have died anyway.

Also, Treguard wasn't really a good guy in theses easily episode, so instead of him telling the team they should have followed the advice and turned right he was also fooled but the symbol, but the fact they end up in the well room suggests they took the right path.
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Re: Re:Series 1 Episode 1

Post by HobGoblin » Mon May 13, 2013 4:24 pm

Ha! I guess the fact that we can debate all this proves that the production team got in a bit of a muddle themselves.

I'm actually inclined to think that there was deliberate justifcation for going either left or right to hide the fact that they would have ended up in the same place (the pilot script has no alternative locations).

I mean, it's not as if people are going to be picking over the details 25 years later, right?

As for the 'magic' - a bit of poetry in the script methinks. Having to get all 3 riddles correct just to make level two would have been harsh even by the standard of the early series.
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Re: Re:Series 1 Episode 1

Post by pjmlfc05 » Mon May 13, 2013 4:59 pm

wombstar wrote:Disagree with everyone here, they had to turn left, the symbol was more than just a 'decoration' and it was even hinted at they could have memorized it.

As foe the clue at turning right, well this depends who's right, it was the right hand door for the wall monster.

I would guess his spell would have been for a well, which the team who have cast had they taking the light, but without the spell they would have died anyway.

Also, Treguard wasn't really a good guy in theses easily episode, so instead of him telling the team they should have followed the advice and turned right he was also fooled but the symbol, but the fact they end up in the well room suggests they took the right path.
One way of looking at it! I think either way it was still a harsh death. Welcome to the forum by the way! :)
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Re: Re:Series 1 Episode 1

Post by DarkComet » Mon May 13, 2013 9:48 pm

The first ever dungeoneer death of the show all but confirms Tim Child's status as a fan of oldschool text adventure games. Eaten By A Grue, indeed.
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Re: Re:Series 1 Episode 1

Post by wombstar » Tue May 14, 2013 8:13 pm

I guess they would have ended up in the same room, one way or another, because of this there was nothing to suggest they took the wrong door, had they walked into a bomb room then it would be different. But then they had already giving the team two bomb rooms.

Another thing is, everyone forgot the wall monster clue. By the time the loaded up the next few rooms it was forgotten, only thing that matted is they didn't have a light and their was would die in that well room.

Unless the 'well room' would reveal two doors, without symbols as clues. Maybe getting the 3rd the wall monster would have told them to pick up which objects, and confirm the symbol was a fake (Tregaurd wouldn't have known if it was or not) Had they picked the lamp without all 3 correct questions and took the 'right path' I'm sure they would have died for not following the symbol. Either way the production team we're going to kill them off regardless. (unless all 3 questions were answered)

Loved how Tregaurd called the next team 'Victims' :D
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Re: Re:Series 1 Episode 1

Post by HobGoblin » Wed May 15, 2013 5:18 pm

I'm personally pretty sure they would have made it to level 2 if they'd got one riddle right, taken the ruby and the lamp and turned right in the corridor. But we'll never know...

Gosh, will episode two have such exciting talking points?!
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