Series 8, Episode 10

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Re:Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Melisandrinoff » Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:39 am

I don't think they expected the winning team to be quite so fast...otherwise they probably wouldn't have bothered with the shortcut, and they could have ended on the winning quest instead of having to bring a new team in who had no chance of winning, even *with* a shortcut. Still, even so, I thought they could have filled up the remaining time with some banter from Treguard, Majida and Lord Fear, especially since it was the last episode, and really gone out with a bang, instead of bringing in a new team for a few minutes. Still, maybe there was just to much time to fill up without a team...It feels very weird to have seen the last episode of KM! But I was too young to see the first few seasons when they came around the first time, so this will be my first ever viewing of season one, and I'm looking forward to it!
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Re:Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Naitch » Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:40 pm

The last episode.

I remember that day almost 11 years ago. Of course I knew it was the last in the series, but I didn't know it would be the LAST series.

I remember watching it with a tinge of sadness ast the series was ending, but I knew it would be back the following year.

I wrote off not long after the series ended to apply for series 9, hopeful that I would finally get my chance to 'tread the path'

I got a reply back sometime in January 1995 from Vannessa Chapman stating that knightmare was no longer comissioned by CITV.

Me and my advisors ver all die-hard fans were very upset. Following my letter from VC I watched the whole of series 8.

I really enjoyed the whole series. I even really enjoyed the last episode. Though watching it recently I do feel it a bit (!) rushed.

I have no feelings of annoyance towards Dunstan or Oliver and their teams as some have over the last 11 years, though I do wonder what the point of having the final quest (Oliver) was if it only lasted 8 minutes and had no chance of being a winning quest.

Shame really, it would have been nice to go out on a winner...

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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by HStorm » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:37 pm

This is probably going to finally set in stone once and for all my reputation as an unashamed geek, but I thought I'd share the following views on the great controversy of the final season; in by-passing level 2, did Dunstan and team really cheat or not? (I must stress that this post is not discussing whether or not the short-cut they were given was unfair, merely whether they were cheating by using it.)

"Cheating" is an emotive term, and when using it, we have to keep in mind what it actually means. It does not mean merely being given an unfair advantage. It requires a deliberate, conscious decision to flout the rules, and that is clearly not what happened here. For one thing, the team did not come up with the idea of by-passing a level, the idea was presented to them and they chose to accept it.

You might respond to this by protesting that cheating is still cheating, and it doesn't become okay just because the referee happened to be the one who suggested the idea. However, I don't just mean that the person who solicits the crime should exclusively take the blame. I mean that, insofar as I can tell, there was no violation of the rules.

Now many of the the rules of Knightmare appear pretty arbitrary anyway, when we get to hear them at all. But the important aspect is that I have never heard or seen any rule from an official source that states that a dungeoneer must complete all three levels of the Dungeon in order to win the Knightmare Challenge. (There may have been something to that effect hidden away in obscure issues of The Quest, but if there was, I haven't read it. As far as I can tell, there isn't even a rule saying that a dungeoneer has to achieve a quest object, as such, which is why the first five quests of season one didn't appear to have one.)

For instance, if you study the books, especially the rules of the interactive game sections at the end of the first six, you will find no reference whatever to how many levels the dungeoneer is compelled to complete; for that matter, three of the interactive adventures aren't set in the Dungeon at all, but in landscapes that aren't even divided into levels. Besides, the rules in the various books often contradict each other, as well as those in the TV series, so even if they did state such a requirement, it would be quite acceptable to ignore them.

Another possible source is the Knightmare boardgame, which has a rules section on the inside of the lid. These do discuss the three levels of the Dungeon, and they appear to imply very strongly that a player needs to complete all of them in order to win. But even they don't present it as a legal requirement, and believe it or not, it is in fact possible to complete the game without ever entering level 2; if an opponent successfully wins a quest object, it can be taken from them before their next turn by using the Spell of Stealing card, which would allow the thief to move into level 3 at the start of their next turn (provided he/she does not become a victim of another spell in the meantime). In any case, the rules of the boardgame again contradict those of the TV series in various other ways.

Furthermore, even if such a rule ever did exist - and I can find no evidence that it did - the rules of the Challenge were often subject to change. For instance, before season 4, a worn object counted against the total number that a dungeoneer could carry at any one time (see Steve's use of the gauntlet in season 2), but with the introduction of the eye-shield, and then robes in season 5, a dungeoneer could now treat them as separate from clue objects. By season 8 it was possible to put clue objects in the knapsack, which was previously forbidden. In short, what once was not allowed, might later be legalised as the series evolved.

Finally, consider that the idea of by-passing a level because of the onset of season's end did have a precedent. Karen's team at the end of season 2 were given a Wheel of Fate that appeared to have Cedric's Cave and the Hall of Folly in its line-up, and both of them were always in level 2. Apparently, Karen didn't manage to pull the lever at the right time to select either of them (this is assuming that the Wheel's outcome wasn't always predetermined, and I must admit that I usually get the impression that it was), but even so, a short-cut seemed to be there.

So there is no rule stating that a dungeoneer must complete all three levels, and we only assume there is because, in most quests, there is no short cut available and so going through all three levels is the only way to get to the finish. In the end, for whatever reason, Dunstan's team happened to be lucky enough to be offered a short cut that nobody else was. It may be unfair, it may leave a slightly hollow feeling to their victory, but there is no law against getting lucky, and it certainly isn't cheating to ride your good luck when you get some.

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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Mystara » Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:38 am

Hurray! :)

Somewhere I have the official "dungeon code" rules that were given to players. I also (I believe it was separate) have a list of tips, the only one of which I can remember is "Do not mumble. Tim Child particularly dislikes teams that whisper amongst themselves".

In any case, I do not ever recall the mention of three levels within those documents. In either case, the shortcut was specifically mentioned. So the rules or tips specifically allowed for it.

I'll need to see if i can dig that out...if I still have it.
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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by HStorm » Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:40 pm

When I read complaints about this quest "cheating", I'm kind of reminded of football fans howiling for obstruction when one of their players runs into an opponent and falls over. In commentary, we'll hear Andy Gray admonishing, "There's no law saying you have to get out of the way!" Same here. There's no law saying a dungeoneer has to do level 2. As far as I can tell, the only rule for completing a quest is that the dungeoneer has to survive every obstacle he or she faces.

Another interesting detail worth considering is that in season one, Treguard stated that the exact number of levels in the Dungeon is not known. Eventually it becomes clear that there must be three, but in the early days, it would have been difficult for the rules to establish how many levels a dungeoneer must complete in order for the quest to be judged a success if the number of levels in the Dungeon wasn't actually known.
Mystara wrote:Somewhere I have the official "dungeon code" rules that were given to players. I also (I believe it was separate) have a list of tips, the only one of which I can remember is "Do not mumble. Tim Child particularly dislikes teams that whisper amongst themselves".

In any case, I do not ever recall the mention of three levels within those documents. In either case, the shortcut was specifically mentioned. So the rules or tips specifically allowed for it.

I'll need to see if i can dig that out...if I still have it.
That would be great if you can find it. And it would certainly be a priceless addition to the online archives if you could scan it and upload it.

Interesting that you say that short-cuts are, not just overlooked, but actively sustained by the rules you were given. Those rules would be as official and final as they can get, certainly more so than the sources I've listed, in which case, the argument about cheating should end there.

The argument about unfairness will still rumble on, mind.

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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Rich » Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:09 pm

Been watching old episodes on Youtube lately, is it just me or was Sidriss FIT?! She was also very attractive looking.

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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Strike » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:48 pm

Well said Iona Kennedy had the best female characters on the show Greystagg and Sidress. Nice to see her pop up last few episodes after the actress had been away due to being pregrant!

Anyway was weird watching last ever episode 15 nearly 16 years later after I first saw it, and firstly dont understand the Dunstan cheat comments they only did what Knightmare crew set them to do, would have been better to see them do more challenges at the end, rather than chuck on a team that would only be on for about 5 minutes or so! Looked a bit rushed last episode but still generally enjoyed it though bit sad to think it was last ever one, esp seeing Smirky on his last flight on a rescue mission!

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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Kieran » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:12 pm

Iona Kennedy was indeed pregnant during S8 filming. She appeared as Maldame of course, but from a tale I read some years ago the Sidriss character had to be shelved for the first half of the series because her dress didn't fit. No idea if that is true or not...

Still, as they didn't know this would be the final episode, there is very little which makes it feel any more special than the usual end of season episode. Indeed, it seems a darn sight less special than the previous 2 season finales.

Nice to see Smirky get his final flight, and Lord F's sign off is both menancing and hilarious at the same time.

I should give it a watch, has been a while!

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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by JamesA » Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:37 pm

Kieran wrote:Iona Kennedy was indeed pregnant during S8 filming. She appeared as Maldame of course, but from a tale I read some years ago the Sidriss character had to be shelved for the first half of the series because he dress didn't fit. No idea if that is true or not...
I've had a look at this.... Iona Kennedy in the "Sidriss" costume doesn't appear until Episode 5 - worth noting that this is as Lord Fear's Bimboid creation however in an attempt to deceive Hordriss. Iona Kennedy's first appearance as the real Sidriss comes at the very end of Episode 6.
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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Pooka » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:17 am

Kieran wrote:Iona Kennedy was indeed pregnant during S8 filming. She appeared as Maldame of course, but from a tale I read some years ago the Sidriss character had to be shelved for the first half of the series because her dress didn't fit. No idea if that is true or not...
As far as I'm aware, this is the genuine reason.

I quite liked the final episode of KM overall... it's always good to see a winning team, especially in the final episode. I'm not sure Oliver's quest was particularly necessary, and especially not getting him to Level 3 in under five minutes! (I would have much preferred him to undertake a side quest that could have been done in Level 1 and then ride Smirky back to Knightmare Castle at the end...) But then again, without using the shortcut, Dunstan may not have won - not that I think he'd have died in Level 2, they may just have run out of time. Not all winning quests can coincide with the end of the series as well as Barry did in S7!

There's no special end of season this time. No breaking up dungeon, no trolls, no dragons and no Christmas. Not that there needs to be, but LF's closing line did leave KM on a bit of a cliffhanger and for that reason it's a shame that KM ended where it did. If they had got another series, they would have known it was the final one and done something more dramatic. But I guess what's done is done, and for what this is, it's a decent enough episode that perhaps could have been handled a little better.
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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Kieran » Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:50 pm

Yes I thought the story had some accuracy in it, probably why I remember it after so many years :D

If indeed they had known it was the final episode, they would have almost certainly tried to do something more with it.

I do feel sorry for that final team being crammed in at the last moment. They weren't half bad...!

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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Canadanne » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:04 pm

Treguard sounds very surprised when Oliver is instructed to "walk northeast". ;D

The Miretrog's footsteps sound exactly the same as those of a stone troll to me - I wonder how Sidriss is able to tell the difference!
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Did you notice, in the Corridor of Blades, they didn't bother spellcasting the BURST spell - or even activating it in any way! Still, the blades were slowed down to normal speed...
I'm guessing they did the whole spellcasting routine, but then the incident with Oliver running through the side wall happened (as seen in Slow Hand and mentioned in Paul Boland's report), and when they refilmed the Corridor of Blades, they forgot or couldn't be bothered to do the spellcasting again. Although it's equally possible that they forgot all about it in the first place, as with the hourglass in Mike's quest which was presumably intended for use in Fireball Alley.

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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Oldboy » Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:55 am

Kinda disappointed with this episode and the one before. The teams got off way too easy and very obviously too. I don't know why they skipped level two with the previous team when they could have ended the series with a winning team.
The next team again should have been fire balled or died in the corridor of blades. It's a far cry from the earlier seasons that showed little mercy for annoying teams giving poor directions.

Shame the series had to end but I remember not liking this season and the one before much when I watched it originally.

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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Pooka » Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:59 pm

I've just watched the last two episodes again and took notes this time.

Since the last time this was discussed, there's still been a little controversy over Dunstan's Level 3, and whether or not it was easy. I'll contend that his Level 1 kind of was, although he did survive Fireball Alley in order to get into the shortcut.

However, according to the notes I've made, he had five chances to die in Level 3 (six if you count the final encounter with Lord Fear, which I don't). In fact, four of the things he faced already had a kill to their name (CoB: Daniel; Miremen: Rebecca; Reach for Runes: Richard; Raining Fireballs: Nathan), and he got past all those!

Very good in getting all three riddles from Snapper-Jack, too. Not all teams got those, although I'm annoyed that he didn't give the answers to incorrect guesses in earlier episodes!

The Maldame bit is confusing - it's a plot thread that isn't really resolved; we get her calling name and her favour and Treguard then says something cryptic about her having more power than LF thinks. I always thought that was a hint that she should be called during the final encounter, but I also recall Alan claimng that Tim told the team calling her would have resulted in their death.

Alan - confirm?

I suppose maybe Firestorm of Marblehead didn't raid Linghorm anyway, as Oliver manages to make it there without any sign of damage whatsoever in the same episode...

All in all, a tough Level 3 to make the victory fairer.

I've previously said that I would have preferred a longer Dunstan quest as opposed to having Oliver's team start. I now think completely differently; Oliver's team are bright and original (I like the compass points directions, as long as you know where they're going). It's fairly clear that they were never going to win - they didn't have time; they probably could've - but, unlike earlier final-quest teams, they weren't given a task to do in lieu of a win.

I'm just going to guess that one wasn't written. Even by Knightmare standards, half an episode isn't really time to concoct and resolve a subplot. I'd have liked to see one, of course - but at least Oliver got through all of Level 1 and into Level 3; that takes some doing!

I know I've weighed in on this before (in this thread, no less)... but, after watching this again, I've decided I like the final episode more than I thought I did!
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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Mystara » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:46 pm

Pooka wrote:The Maldame bit is confusing - it's a plot thread that isn't really resolved; we get her calling name and her favour and Treguard then says something cryptic about her having more power than LF thinks. I always thought that was a hint that she should be called during the final encounter, but I also recall Alan claimng that Tim told the team calling her would have resulted in their death.

Alan - confirm?
It was either Tim or the floor manager who came to collect us from the green room for what turned out to be the final confrontation with Lord Fear. We were told that Maldame was only a level X sorceress and so was unable/would not fight Lord Fear for us.

However, knowing full well what a paladin is, we had already concluded that there was nothing more appropriate for fighting Lord Fear than a paladin, and so we had pegged the bottle as being necessary to defeat him if we came across him.

I have come to a new conclusion regarding what that loose end was all about though. I think the production team hedged their bets and that the Maldame calling name was intended as an end of series finale that would take place during our quest.

As I've said before, the production team were never entirely sure how much game time was remaining (this is largely dependent on editing of the filmed episodes) and we were repeatedly told that we might only be running for fun (playing without having a chance of winning). Indeed, as I've said before, the production team hadn't even written an ending for our team. Therefore, if/when we ran out of time, the production team could introduce a situation in which we had to use Maldame's calling name and thereby finish up the series story by having her 'defeat' Lord Fear or somesuch. As it turns out, we were very fast/good at solving the puzzles and we got through the level 3 rooms very quickly. That left the situation in which there wasn't enough gameplay. The production team then demoted the usefulness of the calling name by telling us it wouldn't work, and then brought in a new team in order to add more gameplay and tie up the loose ends of the story.
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