knightmare.com • Re:Bypassing levels *POSSIBLE SPOILER until Friday*
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Bypassing levels *POSSIBLE SPOILER until Friday*

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 9:56 am
by TheBrollachan
Now we are getting close to Dunstan's quest the issue of the short cut is going to be risen again. Should level 2 have been bypassed? Well if they were going to bypass a level I would have madwe it level 1 by...

- Start off in dwarf tunnels (the usual level 1 ones)
- Someone like Brother Strange or Stilletta appear. They give them a spyglass or tell the dungeoneer that the level 1 has been made impassible and they would have to take a dangerous short cut (CoB).
- Team enters the corridor of blades
- At end of CoB enter into the sewer pipes (used for start of team 5 quest) which end up in the sewers of goth of similar.

Level 1 is relatively short and easy. Whilst skipping levels is never fair on other teams this method in my opinion would have been better than allowing a team to bypass level 2. This version could allow for level 2 to be slightly longer or shorter as required.

What is other peoples opinions on level bypassing? Is it more fair than fixing a quest (Barry's quest s7)

Re:Bypassing levels *POSSIBLE SPOILER until Friday*

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:46 pm
by Kieran
Bypassing a level is not at all fair, it was done because the season was drawing to a close (with it being a shorter season), and the production evidently wanted a winner.

Personally I would have allowed Dunstan & Co. to go through a tougher level 2 (therefore possibly dying), as I believe the final team had a lot of potential to win. Although again, they got a bit of help in their quest, too.

Re:Bypassing levels *POSSIBLE SPOILER until Friday*

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 3:02 pm
by Snowcat
None of the possible solutions would work perfectly but here is another possibility:-

Instead of simply removing a complete level (way to obvious that meddling is occuring), why not simply shorten the entire quest (Shorten all 3 levels by a relatively small amount)? The cut-down wouldn't be completely obvious and the cumulative effect would still give the shortened quest that the production team needed, winner or no winner.

Also remember that, backstage, there would be a standby team wondering whether or not they will get into the dungeon at all (can you imagine getting all the way through the audition, being selected from however many potetial teams, GETTING TO THE STUDIO.... Then being told at the last minute you can't play "'cause we're out of time"??).

What actually happened was a rush job under difficult conditions. Ourselves discussing the situation here have had YEARS to look back and figure out a better ending.

Re:Bypassing levels *POSSIBLE SPOILER until Friday*

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 3:26 pm
by HStorm
Couldn't agree less with that idea, Snowcat. With the removal of the easy bits of Levels 2 and 3, what Dunstan actually got was an unusually tough third level. If there'd been three contracted levels, it wouldn't have been as tough.

In some ways, losing level 2 made the job harder for Dunstan, not easier, as there was no gradual learning curve from level 1 to 3, so I think that maybe offsets the assistance of the short cut.

The only thing Dunstan really got away with was when he was hit on the Corridor of Blades, and he certainly wasn't the first to get undue benefit of the doubt there.

Re:Bypassing levels *POSSIBLE SPOILER until Friday*

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 3:29 pm
by Snowcat
Fair enough.

I still hold to my main point though...

NO solution would have worked perfectly in this situation. The crew simply had to make the best of a bad setup.

Re:Bypassing levels *POSSIBLE SPOILER until Friday*

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 3:58 pm
by mattymoo_goblin
I think they could of made Dunstan's quest slightly longer. I noticed that they beat the dungeon in 35mins while some of the earlier teams in this series died after around 50mins and were very close to the end.
I also say it should've been longer because 8mins for Team 6 was no way long enough to get into the quest properly even though they bypassed level 2.
Perhaps Level 1 could of been lengthened slightly so that Dunstan would complete the dungeon at the same time as the series ended perhaps adding a small storyline to his quest as well?

Re:Bypassing levels *POSSIBLE SPOILER until Friday*

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:07 pm
by TheBrollachan
That would have been a better option, have level 2 about 5 or so minutes long and make level 3 as long as required. Even make out that Lord Fear was so annoyed by the win that he had made the dungeons inpassible / closed to all early (ie cheating). Also acts as an excuse for why only 10 episodes were made.

Re:Bypassing levels *POSSIBLE SPOILER until Friday*

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 1:57 pm
by knightmaredave
i found it fair, as it ws rumoured at the time that it would be the last series of knightmare, ad sadly it was!!! so i think short cut was necessary to speed things up, level 3 was however a lot longer i feel in the final series too with Linghorm and Marblehead.

Re:Bypassing levels *POSSIBLE SPOILER until Friday*

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:13 pm
by Thanatos
I accept Alan Boyd'd explanation:
We won that particular quest completely fairly without any rigging or intervention whatsoever.

Infact, Tim Child and the real powers that be didn't expect us to win, a final scene with Lord Fear wasn't even written until we got there! (As we proved during the first level our communication was less than perfect although this did improve later on). Take a look at every other team and you'll find a similar level of communication during level 1 while the teams get used to everything.

Level 2 was missed out and (as the team captain) I can tell you now that we were possibly the most disappointed to be missing out on a third of the dungeon. However due to time constraints we were told that if we didn't miss level 2 out it would be highly unlikely that we would be able to complete the dungeon at all as and such we decided to take our chances in level 3 rather than trawling through the second level for nothing due to the time running out.

We were made fully aware that the difficulty would not change. The easy puzzles from levels 2 and 3 were removed and the harder puzzles were put together to get us a tougher level 3 (which is the point we quickly started to improve).

Our victory was a fair one.
Furthermore, having re-watched my 1994 recording, I'm not convinced Dunstan was hit by a blade.

And Barry's quest was not fixed, Brollachan.

Re:Bypassing levels *POSSIBLE SPOILER until Friday*

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:53 am
by TheBrollachan
Erm Barry did effectively die 3 times: Moving Blocks room (stepping over on a gap), PYCR (touched the joker), Lie Force starved with no helmet on skeleton (dripping tap), Corridor of Blades (blade went through him practically).

My point being whilst I dislike the way in which a level was skipped, Dunstons' team had to avoid being killed. However I suspect when there was only one episode left as they were still alive they may have been allowed to win.

Re:Bypassing levels *POSSIBLE SPOILER until Friday*

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:00 am
by WhiteDevil
The Brollachan wrote:PYCR (touched the joker)
Im sure you know, as well as everybody else does, in a game of cards a joker can be anything - thus it couldnt be a wrong card ;)

Re:Bypassing levels *POSSIBLE SPOILER until Friday*

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:21 am
by HStorm
Thanatos wrote: having re-watched my 1994 recording, I'm not convinced Dunstan was hit by a blade.
Yes, looking at it again on Challenge yesterday, I no longer think that he was hit by it either. It's the first time I saw the scene since '95, and it seemed a lot closer the first couple of times I saw it.

Re:Bypassing levels *POSSIBLE SPOILER until Friday*

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:02 pm
by keke
I have to agree. No quests were "fixed" maybe made a bit more forgiving but definately not fixed. If they were fixed and they got the blade right through the middle of them then they couldn't carry on. i think barry misses the blade by a cm in series 7 and i dont think the quests were fixed in series 8. Im not sure though that it was fair to make some easier whil they practically killed off series8-team2 by giving them the corridor of blades. and im sure that on the fireball puzzle(is it nathan) when they say side step left he was past the hole but then they shout stop and then it just showed him falling down the hole. Sometimes i think they kill earlier teams off because they don't want a winner so early in the series.

Re:Bypassing levels *POSSIBLE SPOILER until Friday*

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:06 pm
by HStorm
Well 1 or 2 early quests were kind of fixed in a way, in that deaths were reversed. Team 6 season 2 failed to get any riddles right so were given a second chance, and team 1 season 3 fell off the serpent-tongue bridge, but were allowed to refilm it because team 2 hadn't shown up.

Re:Bypassing levels *POSSIBLE SPOILER until Friday*

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:19 pm
by Mystara
G'day

For those who don't know me (not unrealistic....despite my being easy to summon, it is rare that people choose to do so :D) my name is Alan Boyd and I was the team captain for the series 8 winning team (the one with the red hair).

Most of what I previously said has been brought up again here. In fact, I have even been quoted :)

- Our quest was not fixed. In fact, the production team thought we were going to fail.
- Our game rules (given to each team before they played) specifically stated that a shortcut existed. This was also emphasised by Tim Child to our team. At the time of filming, we did not know what other teams had gone through (and the team ahead of us were not permitted to tell us). We therefore had no idea if anyone else had taken the shortcut, etc.
- We were told that if we took the short cut ("if you can find it"), we would miss out the easy parts of level 2 and level 3 (the difficulty of the levels *do* overlap). If we were not particularly good, therefore, we were likely to be knocked out very quickly in level 3 (or even level 1).
- If we did not take the shortcut it was *likely* (but not definite) that we would be 'running for fun' (playing, even though you don't have time to complete the quest).
- At the end of the quest, I asked TC if he thought we could have made it through level 2. I was told that our pace through the rooms we did was FAST and that it was likely we would have had time. But of course, we could have fallen along the way.
- The point raised earlier about quietly shrinking the size of levels is entirely valid. Nobody would have been any the wiser (and actually, having counted the rooms we went through, I think you'll find another winning team actually had fewer than us).
- From what I saw it looked like the plan was to make the shortcut a standard feature of a possible future series.
The shortcut would stretch from half way through level 1 to half way through level 2. There would then be a shorter level 3 and a *new* level 4. I think they were trying to get away from the concept of "level 1 is a warmup, bad teams get to level 2, good teams get to level 3".
This is a lot of speculation based on what I saw. The only thing I know for sure is that it was implied the shortcut would be around and that the dungeon design was going to be different in the next series (if there was one, they weren't sure)
- Dunstan was not hit by the blade. It was close. But he wasn't hit (look at it in slow motion). They put blue masking tape on the floor to mark where the blades stretch to, so they can tell if he *should* have been hit by the blade. Of course, that doesn't mean that everything is aligned properly, graphically (which is why the blades can something seem too close to have not hit)

In any case, quite simply, we ended up with harder rooms than some other teams. But got 4 or 5 fewer than the average winning team were given. It all balances in the end, since you can always make a silly mistake (we've all seen great, sure winning teams do something odd like walk off a cliff).

Hope that clears some stuff up :)