I enjoyed those three seasons, but from season 4 and certainly 5 onwards, the show improved so much.

Season 8 is amazing, and although it uses just a very little too much of CGI, it's still excellent. So much more going on and so better edited and paced.

Classic Season 1 Treyguard with his old rough look and ambiguous side taking is always great though. However I do prefer the assistants he got in. Mejidna was particularly yummy

I've never, ever been of the opinion thst Dunstan shouldn't have won. He did win and clearly deservedly so. Having watched his quest over again, there are a few small blips, but nothing particularly fatal. It wasn't an easy quest either - not really. The only contentious point is the shortcut - which is the CoB, which by that point had killed four teams - so not an easy thing to get through either!

Having read through this thread I think I can see the reason why his team weren't given a Level 2. Some fans (and my girlfriend is of this opinion quite strongly!) feel that they could have squeezed Levels 2 and 3 into the final episode, considering Oliver's quest gets them all the way through Level 1 and it's about the same length, but from what Alan says above, it looks like Tim was just not hedging any bets.

And rightly so. I'd be mightily pissed off if my team got halfway through Level 3 and were then cut off for the end of the series!

I have more of a problem with Oliver's team taking part - it looks like a good team, actually, so it's a shame they didn't get to do too much. It may not have hurt to give Dunstan a few more scenes to pad out the time. However, to Oliver's team's credit, they did get to be on Knightmare. I'd've wanted to do it, if it'd been me.

Oh, and...

Maybe we should have a topic about which winner had the toughest quest, be interesting to really compare them in detail

Even better, do this on KM chat! We've had appreciation week. I wonder if that's what Pooka has in mind?!

Yes, I was considering doing this! But we aren't done with Appreciation Weeks quite yet...

Maybe we should have a topic about which winner had the toughest quest, be interesting to really compare them in detail

Even better, do this on KM chat! We've had appreciation week. I wonder if that's what Pooka has in mind?!

Maybe we should have a topic about which winner had the toughest quest, be interesting to really compare them in detail.

I think that would definitely be an interesting thread to start! There's been lots of informal discussion about which winning quests were easier/harder, but I don't recall them being analysed in detail before, i.e. how many challenges they each faced and the likelihood of failing them.

The other thing, didn't everyone who survived the Blades go on to win? I can't remember a team completing that and still failed.

I don't think victory was guaranteed if you survived the blades, but yes, most of them either won or ran out of time to complete their quests. I think the only team to be killed off anyway was Sophia's, who had already got themselves into losing status by not answering a riddle. (We can't really count Simon in Series 4, who was guided by Gundrada and didn't have to do anything.)

In the case of series 6, my guess is that either the team hadn't completed enough dungeon or they died but were allowed to play on in view of the fact that the rest of the show was going to be fixed

I just re-watched this on youtube I thought they had made it to level 3, but were still in level 2. So had they not died (if they did) wherever they would have been declared winners sounds unlikely considering the shortness of the quest.

Does make me laugh when Dwarf tunnels lead to a boat and then another set takes you right back to KM castle from the boat, the magic or portals.

According to Tim, IF the team had failed the final quest, they would have simply filmed the necessary bits to finish the story and return the hammer and the team would not then have earned the shield (ie have won).

So do we know if this happened in series 6? That team defeated the Red dragon/series finial but were never declared winners.

I think you're missing the point.

You aren't a winner for completing the finale. Those are fixed (you could hardly end a series by killing off Treguard).

You are declared a winner for being alive after having completed the dungeon. That might be by getting a quest item or by getting something else if you were at the end of the dungeon when the story requires that the quest becomes fixed. In other words, the quest items are meaningless. It's the dungeon that counts.

In the case of series 6, my guess is that either the team hadn't completed enough dungeon or they died but were allowed to play on in view of the fact that the rest of the show was going to be fixed.

I seem to recall hearing the latter somewhere but I might be way off.

According to Tim, IF the team had failed the final quest, they would have simply filmed the necessary bits to finish the story and return the hammer and the team would not then have earned the shield (ie have won).

So do we know if this happened in series 6? That team defeated the Red dragon/series finial but were never declared winners.

It was one if the teams from series 2 which I felt had the easiest time.

Wherever a team took the short cut or not was up to them, wherever they walked off a ledge or got hit by a blade was in their own hands but as you say without the short cut there was no time for a full quest. So an opportunity was presented, so one of the last two teams had the best possible chance of success. Yes fait is still in the teams hands but other teams never got the chance and for that reason I never liked the idea of the short cuts even if it made good viewing at the time.

Also, had a team already won I wonder if the short cut would still have made an appearance.

Plus as much as I loved the series 6/7 endings I always thought it was a bit risky, always wondered what might had happened had the teams lost, I assumed they just weren't allowed too.

The other thing, didn't everyone who survived the Blades go on to win? I can't remember a team completing that and still failed.

No teams had a free pass

winners regarding the Troll at the end of series 7, they never even picked up the quest object, same with the red dragon finial, would have been awkward had they both lost. lol

I believe that Tim has addressed the first of these...

As I recall the team progressed as normal except that they were forced to pursue the hammer rather than the shield. The team then won (passed the final challenge) and so the eye shield became the shield of justice. In other words, had it not been for the irrelevant troll story, the team would have retrieved the shield.

According to Tim, IF the team had failed the final quest, they would have simply filmed the necessary bits to finish the story and return the hammer and the team would not then have earned the shield (ie have won).

I'm not sure what you mean by "free pass" because in every quest, the team was only declared as a winning team if they deserved it and had fairly earned it. Whatever "forced" filming was necessary to complete the story is irrelevant to the gameplay.

The same would appear to apply to the dragon.

Similarly in our quest, the last 1-2 scenes are fixed. We won as soon as we had overcome LF. The rest is just window dressing for the story.

Why do you feel they would need one in a shortened series?

If they weren't pushing for a winner then why included a short cut in the first place? It was done because time was short and it was the only way to get a possible winner.

As explained elsewhere, according to Tim, it was done to add an element of player choice into the game by allowing teams to gamble.

But there's no way of predicting that.

I know that, but in hindsight it might have been possible, it's all I'm saying.

No, that's wrong I'm afraid. No teams were "allowed" to win.

I never said that, I said "allowed the chance" because as you said without the short cut there wouldn't have been time to compete a full quest, the short cut allowed both teams a chance.

No teams had a free pass

winners regarding the Troll at the end of series 7, they never even picked up the quest object, same with the red dragon finial, would have been awkward had they both lost. lol

Why do you feel they would need one in a shortened series?

If they weren't pushing for a winner then why included a short cut in the first place? It was done because time was short and it was the only way to get a possible winner.

But the next team also skipped level 2 it would appear Dunstan and co should have had enough time to complete their quest with level 2. The last team still did about one and a half levels, this should equal Dunstan's level 2 or not far off, So I don't think it was necessary, they could have cut a room to two out or even a spy glass scene to allow time. The Blade were the only real challenge.

But there's no way of predicting that.

Different teams take different times in each room, each room lasts a different amount of time, NPC interactions vary all those times, different rooms take different times to set up, your players can only legally be in the studio for a fixed period of time each day, everyone needs to eat and have breaks, your cast may have other commitments, you may need indeterminate numbers of pickup shots after each room is filmed, technical things go wrong, you only have a fixed period of time for filming.....

Then there are other considerations like you want to avoid having two team intros in one episode or avoid bringing a team on to play for 3 minutes.

So whether it could have been done or not, with hindsight, is completely irrelevant. At the time, they didn't think there was time.

But I reckon it was done to allow one of the last two teams a chance too win. Had Dunstan died in the blades the final team probably would have won instead.

No, that's wrong I'm afraid. No teams were "allowed" to win.

It's certainly not the first time a team has been giving a lifeline at least it was a bit more challenging than that series 2 win But it just shows the series was way too short, and I can understand why they needed at least one winner, would have been quite a fitting end to the series has no one won.

I am not really sure what you mean by 'lifeline'. No teams had a free pass and all second chances resulted in automatic later death according to Tim.

as for needing a winner....there are two series with no winners. Why do you feel they would need one in a shortened series?

But I reckon it was done to allow one of the last two teams a chance too win. Had Dunstan died in the blades the final team probably would have won instead.

It's certainly not the first time a team has been giving a lifeline at least it was a bit more challenging than that series 2 win But it just shows the series was way too short, and I can understand why they needed at least one winner, would have been quite a fitting end to the series has no one won.

Maybe we should have a topic about which winner had the toughest quest, be interesting to really compare them in detail.

No idea if they were aware of it or not.

The shortcut was mentioned in our adventurer's code, which we received before we'd even played a single room. But then, we might have been the first team to receive that specific version of the code.

That's fair enough. You can only play what's in front of you.

The shortcut was mentioned in our adventurer's code, which we received before we'd even played a single room. But then, we might have been the first team to receive that specific version of the code.

Shortcut - although I believe Dunstan deserved to win, introducing the shortcut did annoy me. Since when did Knightmare have a short cut in place in previous series? To me, it dumbed it down.

Not sure I agree with that. If L2 and the CoB have a comparable mortality rate, I don't think it can be dumbing things down to replace one with the other. It does become more polarised, but in general it would lead to the series being faster paced, because you'd be killing teams off much more quickly.

I understand what you are saying. But as a fan watching it since series 4 at the time when I was a kid, it struck a chord with me. I was thinking, hang on, there were never any short cuts in previous series. Even in series 8, we were only made aware of it during your quest. I know you and the team can only play the game presented to you. If the short cut was made known at the start of the series, then your point of the series being faster paced, I would agree with.

Were the previous teams before you made aware of the shortcut? Just to let you know, I'm not having a go, I do think Dunstan deserved to win. My gripe is with the shortcut in general.

The lack of seats is basically a function of the height of the pool. You'd need very tall stools to be able to sit at it comfortably. Add the fact that you need to lean forward to see the monitor in the pool and it would be uncomfortable for the advisors.

The height of the pool is a function of the monitor, which is big and long and has to point upwards so that Treguard and Majida could see the dungeoneer from their much higher position on the second level of the stage.

THAT was a function of the entrance gate to the dungeon and needing to be able to film a dungeoneer walking down steps to enter the dungeon.

As I recall, modification was required to the set because the series was shortened. There was less time for set-up and so a simpler set had to be built.

In addition, the seats are, as you'll all realise by now, completely superfluous. Filming a room never took longer than about 5 minutes and the rest of the time you'd be sat in the green room. They really do nothing other than offer a visual suggestion that the team are sat in the antechamber throughout their entire quest, without a break.

Fair enough. It just doesn't work for me as a viewer... the old antechamber was so familiar and welcoming, and I don't get the same feeling at all from the redesign. The dungeon gate seems needlessly clunky and I don't like the teams just wandering out through a door when they leave - it's a lot less magical than before! (Not keen on Lord Fear's constant pacing around at Marblehead either, I preferred it when he had somewhere to sit and scheme.)

Personally I found the first two series to have a much more childish tone than the later ones.

I agree actually. There's a lot of silliness in series 1 and 2. There are some episodes that I really struggle to watch.

The short cut. I genuinely don't mind this existing, really - but we missed out on a Level 2 for Dunstan. I've seen Mystara saying in several places that his team were told that if they didn't take it, they may not have been able to finish Level 3 in time, so they kind of had to. I'd have liked to see this team take on all three levels (and, unlike many people, I still think they would have won had they done so!)

Actually, when I discussed this with Tim recently, he agreed. Our strength was in being able to follow the narrative and in being good at logic/knowledge. Our weakness was in coordination. However, as Tim pointed out, the corridor of blades is the most unforgiving puzzle they had when it came to coordination, so if you survived that, there's not much else they could throw at you. His view was that, if we had time, we would have gotten through L2 fairly easily.

Shortcut - although I believe Dunstan deserved to win, introducing the shortcut did annoy me. Since when did Knightmare have a short cut in place in previous series? To me, it dumbed it down.

Not sure I agree with that. If L2 and the CoB have a comparable mortality rate, I don't think it can be dumbing things down to replace one with the other. It does become more polarised, but in general it would lead to the series being faster paced, because you'd be killing teams off much more quickly.

It's not a good year for Lord Fear, with his unflattering new look and weird over-caffeinated behaviour

I have to say, I love Lord Fear in this season - both personality and style. He seems so much darker to me, and far nastier.

Totally redesigning the antechamber set was a bad idea - I guess the viewing pool is OK, but overall it looks cold and uncomfortable, not somewhere I'd want to make myself at home. (Why the sudden aversion to seats this year?!)

The lack of seats is basically a function of the height of the pool. You'd need very tall stools to be able to sit at it comfortably. Add the fact that you need to lean forward to see the monitor in the pool and it would be uncomfortable for the advisors.

The height of the pool is a function of the monitor, which is big and long and has to point upwards so that Treguard and Majida could see the dungeoneer from their much higher position on the second level of the stage.

THAT was a function of the entrance gate to the dungeon and needing to be able to film a dungeoneer walking down steps to enter the dungeon.

As I recall, modification was required to the set because the series was shortened. There was less time for set-up and so a simpler set had to be built.

In addition, the seats are, as you'll all realise by now, completely superfluous. Filming a room never took longer than about 5 minutes and the rest of the time you'd be sat in the green room. They really do nothing other than offer a visual suggestion that the team are sat in the antechamber throughout their entire quest, without a break.

Also my least favourite series. I'm one of those who feel it was aimed at a younger audience than previous series, though the differences are possibly in tone and style rather than content. I was 13 when it was first broadcast and it was the first time I felt 'maybe I'm getting a little old for this.' It just 'feels' more like a kids show than the other series.

For example, I cannot stand the cringe inducing Snapper-Jack - even though he was bringing riddling back to the show he's basically the Jar Jar binks of the KM universe! Just one of several editorial decisions which were pitched a tad too young. The kid-friendly pie lifeforce being another main culprit.

The reach wand was an appalling idea - the rune lock was tedious viewing (I'm always reminded of team 5 who were so useless trying to get out of the rune lock room that the pursuing goblins were 'forced' to stand staring at the dungeoneer for 5 minutes before she made it to the door).

For a very successful, established programme the series has a terrible, rushed, 'piloty' feel to it. The environments lack personality (though I appreciate the return to dungeon roots) and it's a great shame that gameplay mechanics break down badly at the end of the series - not sure this was necessary.

The best thing I can say for S8 is that is makes me slightly less sad the show was cancelled when it was! It could have turned out to be a transitional series but it could also have been a fatal step on a slippery slope towards KMVR style content. Guess we'll never know...

It has plenty of good ideas (and its fair share of bad ones too) but doesn't have time to implement them and trying to squeeze everything in makes the series end up being a bit of a mess. Then the whole shortcut scenario makes for a rather disappointing end and further adds to the pandemonium.

That said, I do like the return to dungeon dimensions and the idea of Linghorm, Marblehead, the Mireworld etc. but it's definitely my least favourite series.

http://www.knightmare.com/fan-made/fanzines/quest/1140-quest-123

I don't remember reading anything about how the graphics in Series 8 were generated, but there's some info about the software used for Series 7 here.

Also (holds up nerd license for public verification), this old citation from knightmare.com is missing:

http://www.knightmare.com/club/1-2/p3.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knightmare#cite_note-KMClubAmiga-11