It was nowhere near what I was expectin- I had my mouse hovering on the pause button - and is again a very different style the other documentaries. I recommend watching it if you can.

That works for me.

Shall we aim for Sunday at 6?

David is most welcome to make a nuisance of himself. I'm struggling for time on weekday evenings at the moment - I'm getting in later than 8pm on some days. I'm not doing anything this coming weekend, I don't think. Does that provide enough of an opportunity?

https://www.viewster.com/movie/1249-19637-000/the-dungeon-masters/

I think it's good to watch because, as I think Stuart put it, it doesn't really have a journey and so is a little unsatisfying. I really didn't like the dungeon masters (at least as a story), but I think that's why it's good to watch to make sure we don't fall into the same traps. The other documentaries are all good examples, the dungeon masters is the only bad one

I shall wait to hear from Keith

My availability is similar to yours, Alan, though my personal internet access remains limited and unpredictable for family reasons. However, if Keith is happy for me to make a nuisance of myself round his place at an agreed time, I can join the conversation that way.

I thought it might be best to start things rolling by audio rather than discussing things via the forum, which tends to be slower. How does that fit for everyone and assuming people are agreeable, when are people generally available?

In general, I'm available from 6.30 on weekdays and pretty much any time on the weekends.

In the meantime, I had another idea which I wanted to slip onto the table. It might help us home in on the right idea, or may contain elements we want to think about further.

This idea incorporates two of the best known details of Knightmare ("Ooh nasty", Simon's sidestep left) and something I enjoy in documentaries: cast members being been given a literal nostalgia trip to the studio they filmed in.

We decide that despite the success of the Knightmare Convention, we want to do more, to really touch someone's life. From filming the dungeoneer appeal video, we recall that Simon never got over his fatal sidestep left and we decide to help him come to terms with it. To get some background, we interview people involved in the incident (e.g. Michael Cule, the last actor that Simon met before it happened) or inspired by it.

We track down Simon (played by an actor?) and invite him to come to EPIC Studios to recreate the incident - only this time, we'll tell him to sidestep right. We also bring along a Knightmare superfan who obsesses over loose ends (I can imagine Billy Hicks having fun with this role), to help him move on too. (Affectionate parody of the Knightmare fandom might go down well.)

The sidestep right doesn't help Simon. After speaking to him, we realise that it wasn't the death he couldn't get over, it was the send-off: he never got an "Ooh nasty" from Treguard (because no team in Series 4 did). We recruit Hugo Myatt to deliver his catchphrase to Simon and all is well. Except for the superfan, who still wants to know what the BUT spell in Series 4 Quest 1 would have done, and the Brain Pills in Series 8 Quest 5, and how Series 5 Quest 7 would have ended.

2-3 weeks would seem to be more than enough time. How about 17 September. Is that long enough for people to watch and have a think?

E.T. looks at you and smiles. His croaking voice is somehow comforting.

"Alan, the line lies..."

He touches his finger to your heart.

"...In here."

Awwwww thanks, E.T.

Always loved E.T.

I suppose my view is that it's not really a documentary if it's knowingly inaccurate. With that said, I do get the vibe that most documentaries seem to present things from a biased viewpoint - presumably in order to get the journey across and/or reach a conclusion. In most cases (from reading the Wikipedia entries particulalry) this seems to be a "bias of omission" for the most part. I suppose the scientific term would be confirmation bias.

Damn. We'll never be able to show the impromptu breakdancing session we had in Gregs now!

I like the Convention narrative too. It's starting to remind me of a Jeremy Vine graphic spectacular (only without the annoying git that is Jeremy Vine). Alan, it would be so funny to have a mock graphic of your face on a beach, answering the phone in a mock Caribbean accent, only to hear a Geordie voice shouting "ya'll never guess wat!!?" in return.

I won't even attempt the accent.

The convention idea has grown on me. But let's not jump at it until we've bashed more ideas around yet. In particular there are a few things that concern me:

1. I am very fundamentally involved in the story as well as the documentary, but I do not want to come across as the sort of person that makes documentaries about how great he is.

2. I wonder if there's enough of a story. I guess this comes down to how it's written but by the time we exclude the excitement of filling in Form CT600(2014).3, not to mention the cunning trick we used with form AA01 in order to change our accounting reference date (I wish I was joking), is there much left? Most of the organisation was just work - Telling Matt where to be, telling Matt when to be there, typesetting the programme, reminding Matt where EPIC is, designing the midnight hunt, insisting that Matt had promised to bring his DJ kit, grudgingly paying Matt money, explaining to EPIC why we won't give our profits to them rather than a children's hospital, etc.

Plus, we had a lot of fun making the ditties for the convention. The footage of 'Akash' and 'Simon' sat in wasteland while Mark narrated over them was funny, watching it back. We've injected plenty of good humour into the preparation, not all of which need be wasted.

I agree. But the fun was in doing it (which won't easily translate to a documentary) or watching it (which isn't really essential to the story). I think we would need to be careful not to turn it into a mere advert for a next con.

Personally, I would welcome some Knightmare Live participation, not least because that team, like Stuart, is popular among circles of related interest (comedy, nostalgia, drama). They would be handy advocates as well as potential viewers.

I have no objections provided it's relevant to the story. But since KM Live weren't involved in getting the con put on, it's hard to see how they fit any more than peripherally. Again, I worry we're coming at this arse about face and choosing scenes before we even really know the story.

Anyhow, I think we need to keep looking at the high level issues for now.

Which leads me to one more high level question....running time.

I suspect the answer is "as long as it takes to complete the journey". However, I get the feeling there is some kind of industry standard which would be sensible to aim for if we wanted to leave open the option to sell to, e.g. Netflix. Stuart, I notice almost all your suggestions have been just under the 90 minute mark. Coincidence?

I like the Convention narrative too. It's starting to remind me of a Jeremy Vine graphic spectacular (only without the annoying git that is Jeremy Vine). Alan, it would be so funny to have a mock graphic of your face on a beach, answering the phone in a mock Caribbean accent, only to hear a Geordie voice shouting "ya'll never guess wat!!?" in return.

Plus, we had a lot of fun making the ditties for the convention. The footage of 'Akash' and 'Simon' sat in wasteland while Mark narrated over them was funny, watching it back. We've injected plenty of good humour into the preparation, not all of which need be wasted.

Personally, I would welcome some Knightmare Live participation, not least because that team, like Stuart, is popular among circles of related interest (comedy, nostalgia, drama). They would be handy advocates as well as potential viewers.

Will definitely try and get these documentaries watched. I was going to say at the weekend, but I'm hanging out with the clan in Blackpool. Soon, though!

"Alan, the line lies..."

He touches his finger to your heart.

"...In here."

There are no rules for this - it's entirely down to you. Have a look at Wikipedia for the docs you watched and see what liberties they took and what you feel comfortable with.

(One of the most egregious examples is Searching for Sugar Man - a superb documentary about a forgotten musician... Which annoyingly has a premise based almost entirely on lies and withholding information.)

I would personally keep things as real as possible but that is entirely my personal view - I certainly wouldn't hold it against anyone to sex things up a bit. The important thing is to keep the journey on track.

For the specific example you gave the truth is enough I think - it's an amusing image that has some drama in its own right!

The journey: I like the idea of revisiting and celebrating the convention and the ultimately successful work that went into it. (I was thinking recently about a certain ex-member of the community who said we were "the wrong people" to organise a convention, and the satisfaction of disproving that.)

If you're thinking about who I'm thinking about, I have no problem with HIM being made an enemy in the production

One concern is that people might react negatively along the lines of "You had a convention? Why didn't I hear about it?"

I've seen this reaction once or twice, and I have to say I'm not all that bothered by it. Quite frankly, if they looked at the website, or forum, or twitter feed, or facebook account of us, or Knightmare Live, or anyone even remotely involved in the project, they would have seen it. It's not like we didn't go out of our way to advertise it

It also raises the question of Knightmare Live, who were part of the convention. How involved would we want them to be, and how prominent within the documentary? Presumably Tim still has the footage he shot of their EPIC Studios show, but getting access to it might be a problem in itself.

I guess it depends on how we angle the story. But I would envision most of such a story being about the struggle to put the convention on - not merely how great the convention was per se. To that extent, how involved were Knightmare Live in getting the convention (rather than simply Knightmare Live as a show at EPIC) put on? However I angle it in my head, I don't see them being very central to that story.

Which is also fine. Knightmare Live do, after all, have their own thing going for them.

As for the footage, I suspect we'd only want a 3-4 second flash of it. I doubt that'd be hard to get or that anyone would object.

Actually, a question for Stuart...

To what extent are we allowed any creative license in the telling of the story? Take the example of the morning our fundraising campaign ended (we had generated enough money over night).

The truth is, I was heading off on a business trip at 6am, had two minutes to check my email, saw 117 unread emails, and responded with "bugger me".

A slightly more 'creative' telling of the story is that I was woken by a deluge of computer pings at 3AM as people swarmed IndieGoGo to buy tickets.

A complete lie, though immaterial, is that I was in Barbados downing margaritas when Keith called me to congratulate us on having reached our target.

Are any of these acceptable? Where is the line?

Intended audience: I agree with casting the net wide. The Ghostbusters and Star Trek reboots have shown that you can keep hardcore fans in mind without pandering to them and still have broad appeal. There are countless Knightmare fans out there who can't remember specifics from the episodes, and wouldn't care to, but would respond well to a milestone-based nostalgia trip.

The journey: I like the idea of revisiting and celebrating the convention and the ultimately successful work that went into it. (I was thinking recently about a certain ex-member of the community who said we were "the wrong people" to organise a convention, and the satisfaction of disproving that.) One concern is that people might react negatively along the lines of "You had a convention? Why didn't I hear about it?"

It also raises the question of Knightmare Live, who were part of the convention. How involved would we want them to be, and how prominent within the documentary? Presumably Tim still has the footage he shot of their EPIC Studios show, but getting access to it might be a problem in itself.

David

Catfish

The Act of Killing (Warning: Pretty harrowing content.)