The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

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KaM
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The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by KaM »

Hey chaps.

It's a real bummer of a flaw.. but I'm going to stick in the argument from the other side. [Not trying to be a spoilsport]

I could honestly see the AVI posting being a huge, huge problem. I'm as keen to get the DVD release as anybody.. and if Pickle would like anything at all to help regarding the new proposed petitions, I'll break my neck to help.

However, what I think is that the probable prices will only ever hold the die-hard fans.. and that might be what worries G.M. The problem I foresee is that almost every series will end up a double-DVD set. This will have to cost a fair bit at retail pricing. Firstly to cover the basic costs of DVDs, packaging, etc - then there are the royalties.. the cuts to everyone concerned, which will need to be taken into account.

This would be speculating big style - but taking a cost of say £15 per series - that might amount to £120 in total - nothing for the die-hard fans... but what you have to admit that really does happen, is when the price tag is slapped on - one will look at the AVIs they've collected, and/or all the episodes collected on VHS - and just think 'these will do for the time being' - and become enough long term. Yes - the DVD quality will be far better, we'd hope, than anything we have on other media forms - but it might be that just having the material in an acceptable watching quality will prove sufficient for too many fans.

Please don't scorn me for this, chaps - I know there will be hundreds of you who would pay well into hundreds for KM material.. myself inc. - and it's a compliment to how much we hold the whole KM concept in our hearts. However, on petitions with thousands of names, a few hundred sales will not do any good at all - thousands.. tens of thousands are what's needed... and despite what many of you are assuming about the real truth in all of KM's backing, [and I'm so hoping I'm wrong] I just have my doubts that enough will hold to their wish to buy DVDs on release.

I do agree that the AVIs are a great idea for those who don't have Challenge, and agree that Sky TV is a restriction - and also see how it will bring in new watchers and fans that haven't seen it - but would think the best compromise would be to post only a few episodes, and encourage something of an.. anticipation for the rest of the series should the official release ever come about. I agree that G.M. don't help the will to hold back this kind of illegal media posting by their delay to release or at least not updating fans enough on their thoughts to a release - but it would be an encouragement to them, I'd hope.. if not all went on, for the reasons I've discussed about [as long as the material is there in watchable quality, the purchase can wait] - and show a willing to gift them sales by building anticipations in only the way KM viewers can.

Hope this all makes sense.. and thanks for reading, if you all get this far.  ;) KaM
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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Brangwen »

£15 for a dvd isnt anything.  After all it would have more than one disc.  And they sell full seasons of shows for about £30/£40 (simpson season sets)

Unless they bring it down to just thee best and most intresting quests?
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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by GrimaldineGrimwold »

Y'all know I'm going to finger wag anyway, so I won't bother. The one important point that we haven't talked about but that RedMage rightly addresses is the fact that we're not talking about the entire eight series on just one or two DVDs. As far as I know, that's just in the realms of impossibility. The petition statement should be changed to reflect the fact we know we're not thinking in such impossible terms.

It does highlight the need for extras and such to sell each series DVD(s). As I've mentioned elsewhere, I've given this a good deal of thought. However, the main thing for now is to convince Granada of the viability of the project. I do think that depends partly on them thinking there is a suitably untapped market.
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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Dan »

This would be speculating big style - but taking a cost of say £15 per series - that might amount to £120 in total
Oh, I imagine if it's a double DVD set it'll cost slightly more.  However I strongly doubt they'd release all 8 series simultaneously.  Say they released one a month.  That'd change it from being a 120 quid outlay into 15-20 pounds (or whatever) per month, which is much more palatable.   Anyone who recorded KM on vhs or tape-traded for it will be keen to upgrade their copies, I'm sure - I don't think it'll be a case of 'this is good enough for me'.  Especially since Tim Child suggested that there was a lot of bonus material that could be included on the DVDs.

It is possible for people to become die-hard fans through watching the show, also - it's not an exclusive elite of people who saw it the first time round, it's a growing number of people from early teens up through to mid-twenties.  That's some market. ;-)
I do agree that the AVIs are a great idea for those who don't have Challenge, and agree that Sky TV is a restriction - and also see how it will bring in new watchers and fans that haven't seen it
so if you agree that then why say:
- but would think the best compromise would be to post only a few episodes, and encourage something of an.. anticipation for the rest of the series should the official release ever come about
Now, if there were a guaranteed DVD release coming up, then I might agree with you.  But there isn't, as yet, any such thing.  There's no anticipation there at all.

And I'm not scorning you, I just don't think you're right :-)

This topic has been somewhat covered and recovered in other threads already, so we perhaps ought to be using those threads rather than creating new ones.
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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by GrimaldineGrimwold »

However I strongly doubt they'd release all 8 series simultaneously.  Say they released one a month. [...]much more palatable. [...] Especially since Tim Child suggested that there was a lot of bonus material that could be included on the DVDs.
That's definitely how I see it. The extras might need a little work too, which would limit the speed of release. The need to release each series separately (or at most a few at a time) would at least mean that they could be given a "feel" appropriate to that particular series, and extras could be a little more specific.
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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Leggy1210 »

It's completely cool what you say in terms of AVI postings and I agree totally. These AVIs may pose a threat to offical releases.

The only series being posted (by myself at least) is series 4 - no more will be done.  After the series has finished on Challenge, the downloads will be removed and be replaced by various screen shots from the series.

The DVD campaign should be stepped up a few gears by perhaps getting a little more aggressive with tactics.

Pricingwise of the DVD set? I don't think it will be an issue to most!
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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Gerz »

Wont the AVIs be a copyright issue?
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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Kieran »

Ok...I may as well make my thoughts on this quite clear.

Regardless of DVD releases, which we may or may not have, this practice is illegal.  That is my biggest worry about this whole business, and not only that, it is discussed freely on the forums, which could imediately get the people concerned into trouble.  I would imagine that many of you understand the problems with the other KM pirating problem that came to light two months ago, and I feel due to the same reasons discretion is needed here.

Having free Knightmare episodes of Knightmare available online is no doubt good for the community who do not have Sky Television, but as for the reasons I just mentioned, I feel we all need to seriously keep a lid on it.

And Leggy....The idea of getting rid as soon as S4 is over on Challenge? is a good idea, having ever-lasting remembrance of them on your site would not be wise imo.

There, that is my two pennies worth I think....
Last edited by Kieran on 13 Jun 2003, 00:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Pickle123 »

right, from the top....Thank you redmage. just keep your eye on the "knightmare on DVD" topic in "bring back knightmare" forum and i'll keep progress updated. also any request for help will be put there. anything is gratefully recieved ;)

pricing isn't really an issue yet but I am well aware that 8 series onto one dvd is silly impossibity. However, with a double sided DVD 1 series may be squashed onto one DVD. i do prefer single sided on the whole (im a cover art whore ;D) plus as people rightly said space for any generous extras with 2 dvd's per series.


GG, I'll do my best to make it clear we understand this impossibility in the pet.stat (i will either do this t=2moro afty coz i have exams in the morn or...go back on what i said like yest and do it now :)) however plz do go and check this out as illusion improved on my original and the more corrections we make the better the statement will be (im no english student :D)

Dan, i as one without challenge fully LOVE these online eps but I will not request any anymore. im afraid DVD's are too important to risk. leggy, good man...you've done me a sterling service...i just hope my efforts please peeps as mcuh :D

Meph...the most interesting quests! NEVER! that is what i REAL am trying to keep away from. KIS KAR! (BTW: im sure you weren't implying you were in favour of such a thing im just "kiskaring" the idea not you for raising the issue)

kieren, always caring :) *hugs keiren*
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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Dan »

Dan, i as one without challenge fully LOVE these online eps but I will not request any anymore. im afraid DVD's are too important to risk.
I am also without challenge tv - I had it whilst series 3 was being shown, but due to messups over dates for moving house I no longer have cable tv (and can't get it again without signing up for a 12 month period which I don't want)...

I can see the big picture and the concerns that you and others have over uploading other series and I agree with you that this shouldn't be done (and Leggy's already said he's only doing series 4).  The problem is that, since there is no official release and screenings of the series (since Sci-Fi stopped broadcasting) are so far apart and so unsure, people don't know if this is going to be perhaps their last chance to see the episodes.

Part of the reason why I don't consider leggy's uploading of series 4 to be detrimental is because it's no different to me going round to a friend's house and watching it there.  In fact, I have a friend who is recording the challenge broadcasts of series 4 for me.  Keeping _anything_ on video for longer than a certain period of time (2 or 3 weeks, I think?  not sure) is technically a criminal offense.  Is there a difference?
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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Pickle123 »

not particuly except that on the internet its really easyily available at all hours. so yeah...quite different in fact.

anyway. what is kept V.quiet will not be noticed so hush hush now and go about your merry buisness sir. as to the DVD's they are getting more promising all the time but things like this could balls it all up. doubtless there will be other chances and other ways. buck up sunny jim ;D
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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Dan »

not particuly except that on the internet its really easyily available at all hours. so yeah...quite different in fact.
That wasn't the point at all, and you know it. ;-)

If it were being shown on, for example, ITV again, then everybody here would be able to watch it and record it themselves and do what they like.  But it's not - it's being shown on a minority channel that not everybody has access to.  We could all go round our friend's house to watch it, or ask them if they'd video it for us... or we could download the episode.  I'm playing devil's advocate here and suggesting that there's actually very little difference in the end result here.

And you can keep saying 'this could well spoil a DVD release' all you like, and I can keep saying "I don't think it will" all I like - I think we've both covered our respective points there ;-)
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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Pickle123 »

ok, i understand what you're saying however you seem to fail to understand that what your saying is total BULL.

sorry, im tired and hae exams 2moro, please forgive my impatience...basicly.

on tv only: its being shown legaly, the people who get access may tape but that's been done for ages and it's pretty much excepted. Also, it's only on tv every so often so the chance for piracy is diminished. i mean seriously, if you're gonna use this as an excuse for having knightmare online you come dangerously close to banning all TV in fear of video tapes

on WWW: not legal full stop. it's available ALL THE TIME to anybody with access and spread faster, easier, cheaper...etc. lets not mention breach of copyright.

and now im sure you'll throw videos being breach of copyright in my face however, whos gonna prove what you've got on VHS? noone, they can't be bothered. when something is blaitently online there isnt much hiding it

oh jeez, rant over...i pass the gauntlet over to GG
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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Malefact »

It's a very nasty chicken-and-egg situation.

G.M. aren't doing a release yet so people turn to downloads, which diminish the chances of G.M. doing a release, so people turn to downloads etc.

This vicious circle must be broken if we want anything to happen. If all access to Km programmes, with the exception of the Challenge broadcasts, is stopped and we inform G.M. of that, they will see how seriously we take the matter - and that may just clinch it for us.


In terms of DVD extras, series 1 will fit onto one disc. Another whole disc can therefore be crammed with extras. Series 2-7 will require two discs each with fairly little room free for extras (I'm assuming single-sided, 4-hour discs). Series 8 will require two discs, too, but the second will have a lot of free space.

So, I'd imagine the vast majority of extras will exist on the series 1 and series 8 releases. Series 1 being laden with extras would be an advantage in that it would encourage more sales and therefore make a good commercial footing for the release of more series (assuming they release them over a period of time, as Dan suggests, which I think will be the case - series 1 only would be a good way to test the water).
Subject to change.
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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Dan »

ok, i understand what you're saying however you seem to fail to understand that what your saying is total BULL.

sorry, im tired and hae exams 2moro, please forgive my impatience...basicly.
Then maybe you should've saved replying until you were feeling in a better mood?  I appreciate that you may be under a bucketload of stress at the moment, but I don't think that really gives you the right to snap at me, especially when you know full well that's what you're doing and you try and excuse it in the very next sentence :-)
on tv only: its being shown legaly, the people who get access may tape but that's been done for ages and it's pretty much excepted.
...which, as you say I'll point out futher down, doesn't mean it isn't illegal.
Also, it's only on tv every so often so the chance for piracy is diminished.
that's _WHY_ people are doing there best to see it now - they don't know if it's going to be on in the future!
i mean seriously, if you're gonna use this as an excuse for having knightmare online you come dangerously close to banning all TV in fear of video tapes
I'm not using it as an excuse.  I was, as I said, playing devil's advocate, asking you to tell me how it was any different whatsoever.  Your analogy is flawed, anyway - it would be closer to banning videos from being able to record.
on WWW: not legal full stop. it's available ALL THE TIME to anybody with access and spread faster, easier, cheaper...etc. lets not mention breach of copyright.
You can't use breach of copyright as an excuse because the SAME reason also applies to videos.  It doesn't matter if it's gone on for ages and is generally accepted - it's STILL illegal.
and now im sure you'll throw videos being breach of copyright in my face however
Damn right - you can't ignore a point just because it inconveniently gets in the way of your argument ;-)
whos gonna prove what you've got on VHS? noone, they can't be bothered. when something is blaitently online there isnt much hiding it
Who's going to prove what you've got on your computer?  I don't think GM would be any more bothered that I had series 4 in avi form on my computer than if I had videotaped it.

Making it available online is a different issue (supply rather than possession) but still not one that I think is going to get in the way of any DVD release because as has already been said it's going to be taken down after Challenge have stopped showing the series anyway.  It _shows_ the demand for such a release, it doesn't _diminish_ it.

I like your posts, Pickle, but if you're only going to reply to tell me I'm talking BS could you save yourself the trouble?  This is a discussion forum - I'm not trying to deliberately wind you up (so I apologise if I am), but anything you say here is open to debate, so don't get upset when people DO debate it :-)

Good luck with your exams...
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