TAPE PIRACY

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Re:TAPE PIRACY ON EBAY!

Post by Fidjit » Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:44 pm

It doesn't matter which way or angle you aim it at mate, copying it is illegal. Tim Child himself is on these forums occasionally so be warned...
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Re:TAPE PIRACY ON EBAY!

Post by kev_hamster » Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:57 pm

This is obviously an emotive issue amongst the forum members.

I for one would be very grateful for the opportunity to own Knightmare on DVD. It's never going to happen as an official release, as Knightmare only really has a 'cult' following of a few thousand fans - it would just not be profitable.

Regardless of the rights or wrongs, I would welcome an unofficial copy! As long as there was no blatant profiteering of course.

And before anybody asks, I do not condone piracy.

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Re:TAPE PIRACY ON EBAY!

Post by Malefact » Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:07 pm

" I would welcome an unofficial copy!"

"I do not condone piracy."

With respect, do you not see the slight contradiction?
Subject to change.

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Re:TAPE PIRACY ON EBAY!

Post by kev_hamster » Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:40 pm

My point was that I do not condone Piracy of any active brands.

As I do not have Sky (and cannot afford it), I would welcome an unofficial copy as I have would have no other way of being able to watch it.

If somebody was to release an official DVD, then I would be one of the first to go out and buy it, whether I had an unoffical copy or not.

It may sound like a contradiction, but in the situation with Knightmare, I would be willing to have one of these in the interim until there is an official release.

I would not purchase a pirate copy of anything that I can obtain via normal routes.

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Re:TAPE PIRACY ON EBAY!

Post by HStorm » Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:50 pm

Well, if you contact Anglia TV, they can make a copy of episodes for your private use. Problem is, because they wouldn't be official or for widespread commercial use, it would cost you a bomb; early seasons cost something like £80 per episode.
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Re:TAPE PIRACY ON EBAY!

Post by kev_hamster » Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:53 pm

And that goes back to my point of not having, and not being able to afford Sky.

Maybe there should be a petition for a DVD official release? Maybe then it might happen, and people would not have to resort to unofficial fan-made versions if they want to watch the programme.

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Re:TAPE PIRACY ON EBAY!

Post by HStorm » Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:57 pm

There have been loads of petitions about it, Kev, take my word for it. Unfortunately, none of the publishing companies pay much attention to them. Even Granada Media ignore them, even though they were the ones who put forward a proposal for a DVD release in the first place.

Check some of the threads on the 'What Knext?' board for more details.
Last edited by HStorm on Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:TAPE PIRACY ON EBAY!

Post by kev_hamster » Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:56 pm

I hope you all understand my views.

I don't want to be seen to be condoning piracy, I just want to be able to watch Knightmare!

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Re:TAPE PIRACY ON EBAY!

Post by HStorm » Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:15 pm

Yeah, I think it's the one most people have. The common sense take is that, so long as what's in circulation is definitely and permanently 'abandonware', it's not really piracy to copy and distribute it, as long as it's done discreetly and on a not-for-profit basis.

The problem when attaching this principle to Knightmare is that its 'abandonware' status isn't definite - especially as it's still shown regularly on Challenge - and as there are so many efforts to get a DVD release, it's not necessarily a permanent one either.
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Re:TAPE PIRACY ON EBAY!

Post by djoska » Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:14 pm

I reported a pirate DVD set (that keeps apearing).
Some amatuer makes them on their DVD player, uses a useless description and doesn't even supply a good picture!!!

Anyway, I grassed em up and hey told me thay can't do anything about it!!!

ARGH!!!
Keep a look out for my Knew Knightmare PC game!!
V1.0 coming soon!!!!

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Re:TAPE PIRACY ON EBAY!

Post by djoska » Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:07 am

oh no- they've done it again!!!

Someone else had made an effort making pirate DVDs- I assume it's a different seller, as there's actually a description!!! but REMOVE IT!!!!!

They've used a death-sequence image
Keep a look out for my Knew Knightmare PC game!!
V1.0 coming soon!!!!

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Re:TAPE PIRACY ON EBAY!

Post by AC » Wed May 10, 2006 9:54 am

km12345 wrote: Well in my opinion i think its all rather petty to prevent people from obtaining these sets on ebay, the only people who will type in "knightmare" into ebay will be a genuine fan of the show.

I work in audio post production / restoration and from the audio side alone i know the amount of time and work involved to convert all of that old analogue footage into digital footage to meet todays DVD quality standards would mount astronomical costs! You cant even imagine how much work actually goes into DVD production of that kind.

And they are right they would certainly not sell enough units to cover thier losses.
They only ever release the entire series DVDs of really popular shows like, The A Team or (K)nightrider!

If we are very lucky we may see a "Best Of Knightmare" DVD set
which would probably be 90 mins of edited moments.
but even still that is highly unlikely.

I really cant understand why so many of you have such a negative outlook on these ebay sets, you cant buy this programme anywhere else, and the people selling them are doing all the genuine fans a service.

I think some of you are trying to take the moral highground on this, and others have just followed suit not wishing to rock the boat.

Im totally against piracy of new unreleased movies or of DVD sets that are available to purchase from shops,
but i think there is a lot of room for debate when the show is:
1) not available to purchase anywhere
2) never going to be released on DVD (sorry but its true)
3) over 10 years old
4) currently being re run on a really unpopular cable/sky channel

sorry if i sound a bit blunt but i really did love this show when i was growing up and the only people who would be interested in buying a set like this would be genuine fans like me, and without ebay i would not have been able to watch it this over this xmas holiday.

dont cut off your nose to spite your faces

all the best guys
100% agree. I'm a member of many forums, and all contain moderators/administrators who do take the moral high-ground of which you speak. People see those posts and then play along, because the general public are sheep.

I'm doubtless that people will take offence to that, but it's true.

Can you all say you have never sometimes disregarded elements of the law? Especially the smallest of small print or, as in this case, the situation of doing no harm?

Pirate copies of Knightmare are not taking profit away from the copyright holders because the copyright holders are not using the show to produce DVDs - I'd put my house on the statement that people who do buy pirate copies would buy an official release.

The official release is not going to happen, however much false hope circulates.
Last edited by AC on Wed May 10, 2006 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:TAPE PIRACY

Post by Forester » Fri May 12, 2006 11:22 pm

The following soap box rant is very long you have been warned....

A lot of people have taken objection to their sale on eBay largely down to when it first started occuring. Originally there was organised "tape trading" in the form of NKTP long before Challenge started showing the episodes. People were fine with this and Tim Child himself had no complaints.

But then the episodes started being sold on eBay for stupid sums of money like £40. Much more than the cost of copying, clearly being done not as a service but to make a quick buck.

Because of this the whole tape trading thing also had to cease because the powers that be began to take notice.

A lot of people believe that in buying pirate copies it reduces the potential for DVD sales since it shrinks the market. But surely Challenge TV showing the numerous repeats has done far more damage to the potential market. I personally believe that as has been said that even people with pirate copies or vhs recordings would still go and buy the real thing. There is still considerable value in a well produced product. Plus DVDs allow for considerable extra value to be thrown in (Interviews, Commentary tracks, Hidden features etc).

Most people have acquired episodes through traditional means of contacting each other where they can't be easily tracked. E.g. MSN, Yahoo, Private messages in KM Chat room. Keeping it off the forum means should anything occur you're not going to end up with a law suit chasing you.

Those that do conduct these backhand deals also do so at cost rather than with aim of making a profit. Therefore I think that what is the real issue is people making a profit from something they've no right to royalties from.

Yes the eBay pirates are filling a niche market that should really not exist. Knightmare should be out on DVD considering that many less popular programs are already.

I don't think time to convert the footage is an issue, Challenge TV clearly have managed to obtain the episodes in a more common useable form and possess them at a level of quality that does not require digital enhancement. I've seen digital recordings from Challenge TV broadcasts myself and one thing they're not is poor quality. And in fact the quality would be even better if transferred straight to DVD.

The DVDs on offer I would guess are conversions of the AVI files that are available for free to download. These AVI files despite being considerably small meet most peoples level of acceptable and much better than any VHS recording. If people are paying for poor quality DVDs on eBay I'm sure they'll be happy to pay for Challenge TV quality DVDs so the argument about restoration is not really worth making. Anyone who knows who to ask, or where to search will easily come across the files. I personally consider this form of piracy (because UK law does clearly state it is illegal) to be a far lesser crime ethically than selling for a profit.

My argument for piracy is that essentially Knightmare earned the money that was expected from it years ago. It is only the fan base which has helped give it a new lease of life and once again make it a valuable commodity. In software piracy there's an area called "abandonware" which is software that's so old the hardware isn't sold anymore and even the publishers tend to not exist or sell the existing stuff. Really if the creator of something had made their money from it and isn't willing to address the new markets formed from nostalgia it really ought to become public domain material. But my own beliefs can't change the law.

This forum has to respect the law regardless how wrong or right it might be. eBay in my opinion are worse than "warez" sites and P2P networks. Not only are they not sued for allowing piracy to occur (unlike P2P networks which have legitmate uses and do not charge) they're making a profit out of the piracy. So eBay doesn't genuinely have an interest in preventing illegal activity which is why despite reporting sellers they're rarely removed or stopped. But to stay in business eBay will bend over backwards when lawyers get involved.

So in conclusion people are anal on the forum because somebody tried to abuse tape trading and turn it into a money making business. It damaged an existing system of fair trade that worked fine and the Powers that be didn't much mind. The episodes can be viewed on Challenge TV (for the cost of a sky or cable subscription) or downloaded (if you know where) for free. There's no need for genuine fans to be profiting from Knightmare, and a genuine fan would be glad to enable another fan to watch the show at cost. It isn't that people don't want others to see Knightmare or be able to watch it, it's just they'd rather it be done in a fair manner in which any profits go to the right place.

Maybe one day Tim or Anglia might one day consider a pay to download system for obtaining episodes a bit like iTUnes & Channel 4. It is certainly lower risk marketing wise than producing DVDs. For the time being try asking around before turning to the eBay pirates, but don't ask on the forum because the owner & moderators don't want the legal responsibility and it's risky to condone or encourage illegal activity no matter how much you really disagree with the law.
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Re:TAPE PIRACY

Post by Dan » Sat May 20, 2006 12:29 am

Forester wrote:Not only are they not sued for allowing piracy to occur (unlike P2P networks which have legitmate uses and do not charge) they're making a profit out of the piracy. So eBay doesn't genuinely have an interest in preventing illegal activity
*sucks in air through teeth*

It's very dangerous to say that ebay should be held liable for the sale of copyright-infringing goods. The person who commits the copyright infringement is the guilty party, not Ebay. They are a very large operation, and auctions ARE closed down; however, the manpower involved in checking - manually - every auction that is reported is simply huge. I imagine they prioritise it by something like the number of reports, and there's no way Knightmare is ever going to rack up the same number of reports as other dodgy auctions.

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Re:TAPE PIRACY

Post by Forester » Sun May 28, 2006 4:33 pm

I didn't say that they should be held liable though did I? And nor should they be.

What I did say was a comparison, that just like P2P networks eBay serve a legitimate and illegitimate trade. However, they're never attacked by the media moguls E.g. RIAA, MPAA... I believe that anyone providing a service should be treated equally and not on the basis of how big a company they actually are. I seriously don't believe anyone that produces any type of goods or services should be held accountable for how those goods & services are used. Even though there's a lot of people who think very differently. But I do think that all companies diserve equal treatment regarding this, which does not happen... eBay is given a rather wide birth.

Illegal activity ... Perhaps a broad statement there yes I faultered. What I ought to have said is there's not a lot of incentive for them to prevent piracy because they profit from it (as they do from all listings except freebies) and almost everyone buying such goods knows they're counterfeit goods. Unlike other illegal activity such as taking money and never delivering.

Please note I haven't said they are actively supporting piracy, just saying they're not exactly doing much to prevent it and do not honour a lot of the reports people send to them.

I'm speaking from experience here in which taking the proper route for reporting a user yields no response yet taking a similar yet different abuse report route does so. Thus suggesting they're not as committed as they ought to be and claim to be.
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