Series 2 - Episode 7

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Re: Re:Series 2 - Episode 7

Post by HobGoblin » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:34 pm

I do think that first riddle was very hard even by KM standards so perhaps the truth spell was simply designed to provide the possibility of a perfect score...but really?

I just remember being an appalled 7 year old as they headed towards the wrong door in the Corridor ;D

Not sure why Treguard went all Frankie Howerd when Akash was in the bomb room!

That version of the snake room makes it look like a genuine threat though - by accident or design it was quite a cool near miss.
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Re: Re:Series 2 - Episode 7

Post by wombstar » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:44 pm

hahhaha loved it, very funny episode.

I wasn't sure if they gave them a Truth spell to make sure they got at least one correct, maybe being all girls the production team thought they might not be as good? (But a wall monster eating a dungenner would be cool, other than the blocker later series)

Bomb rooms should be dealt with quickly and here we have Tregaurd having a rant slowing the team up.. lol The other team struggled in theirs as well, nice touch teasing them with the food.

Didn't really need help with the clue objects really, and Lilith gets her first kill I think.

The new snake is MUCH better, but im not sure why Folly told them to take the sword.

Best answer ever, Bulldozer ;D
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Re: Re:Series 2 - Episode 7

Post by HStorm » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:47 pm

Mave in season one (team 2) was Lillith's first kill.
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Re: Re:Series 2 - Episode 7

Post by wombstar » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:57 pm

Ah, first of series 2. It was a first something. lol
Team 2, series 1 was a long time ago now with these once a week episodes. ;)
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Re: Re:Series 2 - Episode 7

Post by UnclePob » Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:15 pm

pjmlfc05 wrote:Was so good to see Akash and his team again! May not have been the best team but on3 of the most entertaining! Out of interest I think the team were the only one's in Series 2 who didn't go into the wheel of fortune room to pull the lever to decide which room to start off in. I wonder why this was?
In Series 1 Episode 6 a similar situation happened, where Richard entered the dungeon to find himself not in the familiar room with four exits (which is the starting point for every adventure that season), but instead in a modified version of the Catacombite's lair that featured a grid that needed to be lowered over a pit in the center of the room by standing on a strange omega-shaped symbol.

In light of this, in this episode (Series 2 Episode 7) it's almost uncanny that Akash found himself in the four-door Series 1 entry point rather than the Wheel of Fortune, because it's one more use as the first room to make up for the time it wasn't used.

As far as I can recall, Series 3 quests always began with the dungeoneer throwing the dice.

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Re: Re:Series 2 - Episode 7

Post by wombstar » Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:21 pm

There was also a starting room in series 2 which the team had to ring a bell to lower the platform. Much like the incident from series 1. Both of those rooms only appeared the once.


I never liked the spinning wheel or Dice, I didn't think they added much to the quest.
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Re: Re:Series 2 - Episode 7

Post by Mystara » Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:31 pm

[quote=Canadanne]
Hehe, just seen Akash's advisor Tania on Twitter, presumably watching their quest! She says it wasn't restarted.
[/quote]

If the quest wasn't restarted then it seems mighty convenient that they were given that truth spell. A spell that, to my knowledge, never appears again, to solve a problem that, also to my knowledge, never arises again.

Perhaps she's just being careful with her words. The quest wasn't restarted, but it was tinkered with.
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Re: Re:Series 2 - Episode 7

Post by UnclePob » Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:41 pm

wombstar wrote:Bomb rooms should be dealt with quickly and here we have Tregaurd having a rant slowing the team up.. lol The other team struggled in theirs as well, nice touch teasing them with the food.
Where normally the dungeoneer needs to get from one side of the room to the other, the entry point was much closer to the exit. That being the case, they certainly took their time exiting that room even after Treguard's rant. I rewound that bit on my Sky+ and timed it just to see - they took just over 30 seconds and the bomb still hadn't gone off!

Incidentally out of interest, is this the only episode of Knightmare in all 8 series which was not a first episode, yet began with a new quest? I can't remember any other situation where a quest neatly ended just in time for temporal disruption, besides Series 1 Episode 8, that would enable this to happen.

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Re: Re:Series 2 - Episode 7

Post by wombstar » Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:47 pm

Well they were undecided about that food, they were almost out the door and nearly turned back.


I don't recall any other quests ending right before the end of the episode.
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Re: Series 2 - Episode 7

Post by UnclePob » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:42 am

Canadanne wrote:Hehe, just seen Akash's advisor Tania on Twitter, presumably watching their quest! She says it wasn't restarted.
That's not a lot to go by, since they wouldn't have needed to literally restart the quest. In addition to the "TRUTH" spell mystery, I find it distinctly odd that the only marked door in the first room is "FIRE EXIT", while the third (literally the second if you don't count the troll room) is the bomb room.

Treguard's comment, "This team seems to hunt for trouble.", suggests to me that originally Akash might have been led to the "FIRE EXIT" door - a bizarre choice since most other teams expect "FIRE EXIT" to lead to danger. As would have been expected, the room that follows would have been the bomb room.

There's one possible blunder right there, which might have happened and been covered up in the final edit of the footage by a simple relocation of the "FIRE EXIT" graphic among other things.

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Re: Series 2 - Episode 7

Post by Canadanne » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:25 am

Mystara wrote:
Canadanne wrote:Hehe, just seen Akash's advisor Tania on Twitter, presumably watching their quest! She says it wasn't restarted.
If the quest wasn't restarted then it seems mighty convenient that they were given that truth spell. A spell that, to my knowledge, never appears again, to solve a problem that, also to my knowledge, never arises again.

Perhaps she's just being careful with her words. The quest wasn't restarted, but it was tinkered with.
Indeed. The plot thickens!

(Her exact words, when asked if it was a restarted quest: "No we got something right....don't ask me what that was now but we definitely did! Poor Akash!") If she means they answered a riddle correctly, it's even more of a mystery as to why that scene was refilmed.
UnclePob wrote:Incidentally out of interest, is this the only episode of Knightmare in all 8 series which was not a first episode, yet began with a new quest? I can't remember any other situation where a quest neatly ended just in time for temporal disruption, besides Series 1 Episode 8, that would enable this to happen.
Sophia's death in Series 6 also coincided with the end of an episode - they waved goodbye during the end credits, and Pickle was still depressed when the next episode began!

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Re: Re:Series 2 - Episode 7

Post by pjmlfc05 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:32 am

HobGoblin wrote:I do think that first riddle was very hard even by KM standards so perhaps the truth spell was simply designed to provide the possibility of a perfect score...but really?
Yes the first riddle was very tough but I don't think the TRUTH spell was meant to be used as a correct answer. Unfortunately we will never know what the purpose of the spell was meant to be!
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Re: Series 2 - Episode 7

Post by Drassil » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:46 pm

After last weekend's voiceover debacle, I was hoping that the Challenge continuity announcer for the Series 2 Episode 7 showings would be fresh out of mime school. No such luck. And my response to his ramblings during the Fun House closing credits, in which he mentioned holograms for some reason, could be rhymed with "What the muck are you walking about?"
wombstar wrote:Team 2, series 1 was a long time ago now with these once a week episodes. ;)
It was shown again last Wednesday and Thursday as part of the weekday morning repeats.

Like David "Jock" Campbell, whose quest was also repeated a few days ago, Akash is one of the few dungeoneers to have a nickname: Ackle. His advisors, though, won't win an accolade for their Ackle aid. Was (Not Was) might have said:
Doom doom Ackle Ackle Ackle doom, doom doom Ackle Ackle room doom
And we know what Billy Joel would have said:
Won't get too far if you have no ice pack-ack-ack-ack-ak-Akash
Despite having no ice, the team ended up on the rocks. And while the Troll had missed his breakfast, Lillith went for dessert: she made Ackle crumble. I learnt a new word when she called him a greenhorn (though I can't make out the word before: kindless? guileless?). After that scene was originally shown on Children's ITV, several complaints were received from deeply offended viewers with green horns. This is, of course, a total untruth.

It feels like stating the obvious but I believe this was the only episode in which Treguard broke the fourth wall mid-quest to mock a team.
Chris wrote:I do think that first riddle was very hard even by KM standards
The wording wasn't straightforward but I'm confident I knew the story of King Alfred and the tide when I was a good few years younger than they were. In terms of pre-Norman royal general knowledge, it's up there with the story of King Canute burning the cakes. Having said that, Treguard could easily have given them a clue for the second or third riddle, as he did with so many other teams, if the voice in his ear had bidden him to.
Alan wrote:
Annie wrote: Hehe, just seen Akash's advisor Tania on Twitter, presumably watching their quest! She says it wasn't restarted.
If the quest wasn't restarted then it seems mighty convenient that they were given that truth spell. A spell that, to my knowledge, never appears again, to solve a problem that, also to my knowledge, never arises again.

Perhaps she's just being careful with her words. The quest wasn't restarted, but it was tinkered with.
Maybe we should invite her to come to the forum, away from the ruthlessness of the live-tweeters, to give her side of things. That's what Andrea from Team 5 of Series 5 did, and it shed a lot of light on what was otherwise a misunderstood team. It's also possible that Tom Hunt might remember any unusual decisions made during filming of this quest.

Personally, I reckon that time travel explains it. But then when it comes to Knightmare, I always reckon that time travel explains it. Maybe the Challenge announcer did know what he was talking about when he connected holograms to Knightmare after all.

The next team were the first to choose their quest object and one of the few to choose from three objects rather than two or four. Interesting how the Sword and Shield swapped characteristics over time, later becoming known as the Sword of Freedom and Shield of Justice.

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Re: Re:Series 2 - Episode 7

Post by UnclePob » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:45 pm

wombstar wrote:I wasn't sure if they gave them a Truth spell to make sure they got at least one correct, maybe being all girls the production team thought they might not be as good? (But a wall monster eating a dungenner would be cool, other than the blocker later series)
I'm all but certain assumptions of that nature simply wouldn't have been made, after all it would have been borderline sexism, that makes little sense when you consider that (during that period of time) on average girls out-performed boys at school. I managed to somehow be in set 1 in all my school classes, and apart from a handful of the same male faces those classes consisted primarily of girls :)

If we're going to assume the "TRUTH" spell was a unique but legitimate and planned feature of that team's Level 1, there are two possibilities as far as I can see:

1) The spell was intended for use later in the dungeon. The troll did say that misuse of the spell would be dangerous, but it's difficult to imagine how a spell with a name such as "TRUTH" could be dangerous in any way. Perhaps a later room required the use of the spell to pass safely, meaning that the team would have failed their quest if they made it to that point, even if they'd taken the ice pack for Lillith.

2) A wall monster was being used to it's fullest here. As we know a team has to answer three riddles, the outcome differing depending on how many correct answers were given.

One correct answer allows the dungeoneer to pass, no real clues are given beside the occasional statement of the quest object; though most teams could usually use a combination of their wits, logic, luck and the Adventurer's Code to pick the correct two clue objects to pass the obstacles ahead.

Two correct answers grants the team a cryptic clue; these clues are usually fairly obvious (but not always), and usually help point out one correct clue item, one clue item to be avoided or sometimes both. This clue is normally all that's required, because if the Adventurer's Code is followed the proper two clue objects are usually abundantly clear.

Three correct answers is the tricky one: the team may command the wall monster, and this can result in anything from a clue-object clue that practically states which two objects to take, to being granted a spell.

It's worth noting that no team was ever seen getting every answer wrong. This may be the cause of the controversy, since every team has managed at least one correct answer and either passed or failed the level based on the particular clue objects they decided to take. Since the answers given to the wall monster don't affect which items are available, even with no clues at all there is still a possibility the team might take two correct items - especially if there is a dagger or other blatant object to be avoided among the choices.

So it all hinges on what exactly was intended to happen at the three correct answers stage. Since it was rare (but not exactly unheard of) for all three answers to be given correctly, the reward for three correct answers wasn't usually anything particularly vital - a bonus clue that wasn't absolutely necessary though helpful nonetheless being the normal reward.

What if the team were in a scripted Level 1 which absolutely hinged on being granted a spell, and the spell being granted to them by a wall monster? Just for once, the three correct answers would be vital. Since that's almost too difficult a requirement for Level 1, their chances of pulling off such a feat will have needed to be improved - hence the "TRUTH" spell.

The majority of teams, when confronted with a wall monster, managed two correct answers out of three to the point where it was the general expected result. Most teams struggled with at least one riddle, and the "TRUTH" spell may very well have existed to essentially remove that one tricky riddle from the table, and essentially act as a lifeline in maintaining a perfect score.

The controversy is expedited by the team's inability to answer the first riddle correctly, at which point the "TRUTH" spell was used. Had the team correctly managed the first riddle, but used the spell for either the second or the third then we'd have had some indication that the spell was intended, not to guarantee the team the ability to survive the chamber, but to work towards a difficult to obtain reward that in this case could have been more vital than usual.

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Re: Series 2 - Episode 7

Post by HStorm » Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:06 pm

What if the team were in a scripted Level 1 which absolutely hinged on being granted a spell, and the spell being granted to them by a wall monster? Just for once, the three correct answers would be vital. Since that's almost too difficult a requirement for Level 1, their chances of pulling off such a feat will have needed to be improved - hence the "TRUTH" spell.
This idea still doesn't get past the air of coincidence though. The only team that couldn't get any riddles right 'just happens' to be the team that got a generic spell that can be used as a substitute for a correct answer. Given the way quests were usually scripted fairly tightly, spells tended to be given out with a view to what was going to happen later, which is fine i.e. they're really a possible 'third clue object'. But how did the production team know that the team wouldn't get any answers right at all?

To put it down just to a big slice of luck is... well, it's possible, but it's just a bit difficult to swallow.
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