Series 8, Episode 10

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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by wombstar » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:45 pm

If the short cut had not been introduced that's exactly what they could have done I guess, I wonder why they didn't just do it, have you do a 'series finial' quest and still filmed another normal team quest afterwards if time allowed, that quest could then aired before yours instead even if it was filmed after.

It's very easy all theses years later to suggest this and that I know, it's very different at the time it's all happening. Still very fascinating though.

Another option maybe would have been to use Maldame to return home once lord fear was defeated and the quest object collected.
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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Mystara » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:02 pm

wombstar wrote:If the short cut had not been introduced that's exactly what they could have done I guess, I wonder why they didn't just do it, have you do a 'series finial' quest and still filmed another normal team quest afterwards if time allowed, that quest could then aired before yours instead even if it was filmed after.
Well....

Firstly, I assume they introduced the shortcut because they wanted to have the shortcut in there. The fact that they could have eliminated it and thereby not required the last time is irrelevant if they want the shortcut mechanism.

Secondly, your suggestion would have the slightly odd consequence of killing off a team when the series ends. It's all very well requiring a team's quest to end because of the end of series, but actively killing them off (in order to show our "end of series" quest) would be a little harsh. It would basically be implying that the team had made a mistake or done something wrong when they hadn't. That isn't really Tim's style.
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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by wombstar » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:02 pm

Indeed forcing a kill is unfair, but giving a team a short cut when others didn't have the option also seems a bit unfair.

There's no perfect solution, it's just fun to imagine other possibilities.
Although it was pretty nice having an old style end of series without a winner and without some big story line so I kinda liked it.
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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Mystara » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:28 pm

Indeed forcing a kill is unfair, but giving a team a short cut when others didn't have the option also seems a bit unfair.
Firstly, there's a magnitude of difference between the two.
In the former, you're not giving the team a chance at all and merely forcing the event. It's automatic death, no matter how good or bad the team was. At this point, it stops being a game because there is no chance to win.

In the latter, it's still a game because there's still a chance to win or to die. I would argue (although others may disagree) that doing the CoB as opposed to doing L2 minus the CoB barely changes the odds (I think both have about a 60% death rate?). Therefore, the shortcut doesn't even dramatically change the odds. A good team still win whereas a bad team still die. Certainly, a bad team would still die in L3. Fundamentally, this is why I don't consider our victory to be unfair. It's hard to say that we would have failed L2 when we did so well in L3.

This was the situation as it was presented to us, but as it turns out, it was probably wrong - since there would have been time for us to do L2 after all.

Phrased differently, a bad team might not choose to go through the blades. But you'd certainly expect that team to die in L2.

Secondly, I'm not quite sure why you're connecting the shortcut to the end of series. It feels like a bit of a non-sequitar. As I said previously, the shortcut was there because they wanted the idea of a gamble. It wasn't (AFAIK) there to enable a series finale to take place. Therefore the whole question is moot. It might be that the timings are such that if they got rid of it (and the final team) then my team could have had a full L2. But that doesn't help if they actively wanted the shortcut concept to be in there.


Just as a side point, and something else that has occurred to me....
I'm not entirely sure that the argument "we would have had time to do L2" is necessarily true. Some rooms (the CoB) are very quick to set up and yield a few minutes of gameplay. Other rooms take much longer to set up for the amount of gameplay that you get. We completed our quest late on a Tuesday afternoon and gameplay had to finish by Wednesday afternoon. It is possible that the L2 rooms would have taken much longer to set up and film than the L3 rooms. One point in support of this hypothesis is that it appears that a different VR system was in use for L3 as opposed to L2.
It could therefore have been the situation that, had we done L2, we wouldn't have been able to film enough gameplay in time. This would have resulted in a weird L2/L3 as the production team tried to put in gameplay-generating encounters that were quick to set up.
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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by wombstar » Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:47 pm

Worth noting many teams has both a level two and a Corridor of blades to contend with, so the odds of death were far greater. So some might say it was a bit unfair to other teams who had to play the full dungeon. I suspect this wouldn't even be an issue for people had the team not won.

Nobody is saying it was an easy win as there were far easier wins over the years, but the knightmare short cut will be a debate that will go on forever and divide opinions 8)
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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Mystara » Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:26 pm

wombstar wrote:Worth noting many teams has both a level two and a Corridor of blades to contend with, so the odds of death were far greater.
Not necessarily. Just because you have one puzzle of difficulty X and another puzzle (or group of puzzles) of difficulty Y does not mean that the total difficulty is X+Y. Indeed, I suspect the total difficulty is MAX(X, Y) + DELTA. In other words, it would be equal to the highest difficulty of the two puzzles (because if you can do one, you can do the other) plus a very small increase to represent the fact that it's always possible to make some fluke mistake.

Phrased differently (Tim's argument): If you can handle the blades, why would anyone think you would struggle with L2?
wombstar wrote: So some might say it was a bit unfair to other teams who had to play the full dungeon. I suspect this wouldn't even be an issue for people had the team not won.
Some might say that, but they'd be saying it without any real analysis (real analysis here is almost impossible). Those teams that faced L2 and the corridor of blades didn't face other things that we faced in L3, which could be argued to be even harder. For example, the final fireball room has a kill rate equal to the corridor of blades (he said, abusing statistical analysis to make his point).
wombstar wrote: Nobody is saying it was an easy win as there were far easier wins over the years, but the knightmare short cut will be a debate that will go on forever and divide opinions
Probably. But I think the quest only appears to be unfair because of how it is presented - an entire LEVEL being removed. This is, of course, completely meaningless because level sizes, difficulties, and durations aren't standardised.

Viewed objectively, the corridor of blades seems substantially more dangerous than the L2 experienced by, say, winning team 4 of series 2, who had Cedric to help them most of the way. I think L1 and L3 are comparable across both quests.

In terms of the length of the quest (35 minutes) it's also comparable to team 4, series 2 and the same(?) as team 10, series 2, who also won.

But, well, appearance tends to be everything :)
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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by wombstar » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:04 pm

I agree.
Many deaths were also down to mistakes and errors as you pointed out so someone may expertly survive the blades could accidently fall off a level 1 ledge, watching series 3 on challenge the first team were looking good before stepping on quick sand.

Certainly agree about 'appearance' The short cut gives the appearance a huge chunk of dangers have been removed, so the viewer gets the impression the team has been giving an easy ride because of it.

I always thought the Series two winners appeared to have had the easiest wins.

I wonder how many teams beat the blades but still lost the quest? I can't think of any off the top of my head
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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Canadanne » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:11 pm

wombstar wrote:I wonder how many teams beat the blades but still lost the quest? I can't think of any off the top of my head
I can only think of Sophia in Series 6.

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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Drassil » Sat Nov 07, 2015 6:31 pm

Canadanne wrote:
wombstar wrote:I wonder how many teams beat the blades but still lost the quest? I can't think of any off the top of my head
I can only think of Sophia in Series 6.
Also Simon in Series 4 (Team 4). Even if Gundrada physically guiding him through the Corridor of Blades makes it as passive as an eyeshield sequence.

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