The new KM episode is up!

Discussion about Knightmare in youtube's Geek Week.
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wombstar
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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by wombstar » Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:02 pm

If they filmed extra rooms after the death then I guess they will be slotted in before the death, we saw a level 3 clue room on level 2.. so technically with the added footage that would be re-edited to be the level 3 clue room. We know it ends with that death... so it had to be in level 3??

Unless they had another go at it until they did it.
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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by HStorm » Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:04 pm

Have to say, SMDM does seem to be a puzzle that belongs on level 3. Too difficult for level 2.

Having said that, if the scene were moved to level 3, what Treguard says after the fall would stop making any sense.
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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by wombstar » Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:36 pm

I can't remember what he said.
Maybe they shot him saying different dialogue?

We'll have to wait and see, looking very much forward to the extended cut. :)
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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by HStorm » Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:53 pm

He said that Stuart found a way into level 3 but not the way intended (or something on those lines), which would become a complete non-sequitur if the SMDM scene were moved to level 3.
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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by UnclePob » Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:58 pm

HStorm wrote:Have to say, SMDM does seem to be a puzzle that belongs on level 3. Too difficult for level 2.

Having said that, if the scene were moved to level 3, what Treguard says after the fall would stop making any sense.
I think it varies really.

SMDM gets it's difficulty from two separate and distinct factors - knowing or being able to figure out the safe route, and guiding the dungeoneer safely from one side to another.

The first factor is variable. If SMDM appears in Level 2, the answer to the puzzle would pretty much be flat-out given to the team immediately prior (hence the scroll in the GW episode). This means that the only real difficulty would lie in guiding the dungeoneer. On Level 3, the team would have to work much harder to gain the requisite knowledge to cross safely, such as being given a tricky lateral thinking exercise, or simply be left having to use guesswork.

The second factor looks tough (and probably is tough), but in reality the safe route is indeed safe. Unlike the causeway puzzles previously seen, there is no real time/panic factor, unless the game was being particularly devious the tiles wouldn't fall away after a set period of time. Hairy moments where the dungeoneer rotates the completely wrong way and needs to rotate to the proper facing before time expires simply can't happen. This means a team can take their time carefully making their way across.

While crossing to the other side of a gap always carries an element of risk should a dungeoneer not step or jump far enough, the path is straight forward so the dungeoneer never has to re-orient. Presumably, once the correct initial letter is chosen and stepped on, the other letters in the same row become safe (as was the case with similar puzzles in the past), so sidestepping can be used to line-up with the next correct letter. With this routine down, crossing shouldn't be too difficult.

While the blades are scary and dangerous looking, they're purely psychological if used at the speed they were in the Geek Week episode. On Level 3 they would be made to swing much more frequently, but considering they only ever swing over the gap between the tile rows the dungeoneer is never in danger of being hit by them unless he/she is in the middle of crossing over when they swing.

So in essence, there's no real reason why the SMDM can't be used in Level 2. The most compelling reason why it should remain for the most-part a Level 3 puzzle is because of the spectacle - it looks almost impossible to the viewer at first glance - and the scope it has to be much more difficult if it's tweaked properly, but that same spectacle factor was no doubt responsible for it's usage in Level 2 in the situation where there simply wasn't going to be enough time for the episode to have featured Level 3 at all.

And concerning Treguard's quote - it's perhaps the easiest thing in the world to re-shoot and insert, especially since it's sure to be adlibbed by Hugo as a response to a non-scripted death. Maintaining consistency with that single line won't be the likely deciding factor on where the SMDM section appears, though unless the puzzle itself is either cut or re-shot, the quest must still end there.

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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by Canadanne » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:33 pm

UnclePob wrote:While the blades are scary and dangerous looking, they're purely psychological if used at the speed they were in the Geek Week episode. On Level 3 they would be made to swing much more frequently, but considering they only ever swing over the gap between the tile rows the dungeoneer is never in danger of being hit by them unless he/she is in the middle of crossing over when they swing.
But they have to jump onto the platform where the axes swing, then sidestep along it before jumping onto the next row of tiles, so there is a very real danger of being hit by an axe if they dither too much.

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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by UnclePob » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:46 pm

Canadanne wrote:
UnclePob wrote:While the blades are scary and dangerous looking, they're purely psychological if used at the speed they were in the Geek Week episode. On Level 3 they would be made to swing much more frequently, but considering they only ever swing over the gap between the tile rows the dungeoneer is never in danger of being hit by them unless he/she is in the middle of crossing over when they swing.
But they have to jump onto the platform where the axes swing, then sidestep along it before jumping onto the next row of tiles, so there is a very real danger of being hit by an axe if they dither too much.
Don't the axes swing between the rows of tiles, meaning that the only time they could be hit by them is while they're in the process of crossing?

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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by pjmlfc05 » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:27 pm

The axe swings across the platform and it's the same for the VR version.
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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by Canadanne » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:30 pm

UnclePob wrote:Don't the axes swing between the rows of tiles, meaning that the only time they could be hit by them is while they're in the process of crossing?
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. They can't get from one row of letter tiles to another without first jumping onto the platform that the axes swing over, which is when they're in danger of getting hit. (Have you seen the KMVR pilot?)

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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by UnclePob » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:43 pm

Canadanne wrote:
UnclePob wrote:Don't the axes swing between the rows of tiles, meaning that the only time they could be hit by them is while they're in the process of crossing?
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. They can't get from one row of letter tiles to another without first jumping onto the platform that the axes swing over, which is when they're in danger of getting hit. (Have you seen the KMVR pilot?)
Yes, the KMVR pilot is what I'm basing this off since it's unclear where exactly the blades are swinging in the Geek Week episode itself.

Here's a diagram of how the SMDM appears to me:

Code: Select all

        XXXXXXX
BLADE ->
        X X X X
               <- BLADE
        XXXXXXX
BLADE ->
        X X X X
               <- BLADE
        XXXXXXX
In that crude diagram, the spaced "X" are the tiles with letters on them, while the other "X" are the safe platforms. Neither type appear to drop so they're all safe places a dungeoneer can stand and position him/herself for the leap across the next gap.

When the dungeoneer is standing on the letter tiles, if the blades swing by one will pass behind the dungeoneer in the space he/she just crossed, while the other will pass in front, in the space he/she needs to cross next.

The only time a dungeoneer can actually get hit by a blade is if he/she is actively jumping or stepping forward across a gap at the moment when the blades swing. If the dungeoneer is in a position where he/she would be hit by the blades and doesn't have solid footing on a safe tile then it's a death by falling into the pit instead.

EDIT: Yeah, I totally understand what you meant now - see below :)
Last edited by UnclePob on Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by UnclePob » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:53 pm

Canadanne wrote:
UnclePob wrote:I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. They can't get from one row of letter tiles to another without first jumping onto the platform that the axes swing over, which is when they're in danger of getting hit. (Have you seen the KMVR pilot?)
Ah! I watched that KMVR episode a bunch of times when I was trying to get my head around how the SMDM worked and I could have sworn the blades go in the gaps - the diagram in my last post (which I can't yet edit thanks to my pink username) illustrates what I thought I was seeing.

Now I see that you were saying the blades swing over the "safe" platforms that don't have letters on them, not the gaps between.

So you were right all along! I was so absolutely sure the blades swung over the gaps because that's how it looked to me. In hindsight I feel kind of silly because there's a thin dark line that goes horizontally across those platforms which should have clued me in :-[

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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by wombstar » Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:48 pm

I thought they were swinging over the gaps.
What it did in VR is irrelevant... that matters is how they've adapted the room for this episode.

But IF the blades are passing other the safe platforms would they be on a timer? they could be paused once a dungenner passes them (like tbhe spike room in series 1) or the production team will give them extra time to make a move.

Play your cards right was a level 3 room and they wasn't as extreme as this, all they had to do was guess the right card and take a large step, in fact the solution to that game is still a real mystery to me. For me the card game should be level 2, and the slice me should be a level 3 causeway.
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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by beveryafraid » Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:26 pm

I don't like to intervene, but I think you guys are not thinking it through. In terms of what happened 1987-94, some chambers could be designated levels one, two or three. But the game changed in 2013 when we played adults in, in an adventure that could not possibly go past level 2. All I was trying to do was to present a genuine game in a somewhat artificial circumstance. So in these terms it mattered little if clue rooms etc were borrowed from different levels (historically).

I am blown away by the fact that you all care about such details 20 years on, but the over-riding aspect of Knightmare is that we strive to make the greater game just that - a genuine challenge in an artificial world. We did that again in Norwich in August. If we carry it forward, and who knows what is to come or not, it will be under the same principles. Its easy to fake these things, especially in a TV environment, but the result if you do it, just makes the whole thing not worth a candle.

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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by knightmaredave » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:41 pm

beveryafraid wrote:I don't like to intervene, but I think you guys are not thinking it through. In terms of what happened 1987-94, some chambers could be designated levels one, two or three. But the game changed in 2013 when we played adults in, in an adventure that could not possibly go past level 2. All I was trying to do was to present a genuine game in a somewhat artificial circumstance. So in these terms it mattered little if clue rooms etc were borrowed from different levels (historically).

I am blown away by the fact that you all care about such details 20 years on, but the over-riding aspect of Knightmare is that we strive to make the greater game just that - a genuine challenge in an artificial world. We did that again in Norwich in August. If we carry it forward, and who knows what is to come or not, it will be under the same principles. Its easy to fake these things, especially in a TV environment, but the result if you do it, just makes the whole thing not worth a candle.
Very well said here! and it was a most excellent room and looked really really good!!! I really enjoyed the more taxing rooms, made me think more about what happens next!

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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by rachelesque » Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:57 am

I could (and may still) decide to go into detail, read past the first couple of pages and dissect the episode (finally watched it last night). But while I'm still on a bit of a 'ohmygodnewknightmareepisode' high:

Thank you to everyone involved. You had two (old) women sitting in a darkened room yelling at the TV like 8 year olds again. Sure, I have a few minor gripes but basically we loved it.

:D

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