Forced vs. unforced deaths (long!)

[Dan]

Partly prompted by Simon's unfortunate exit... ;D  This post contains slight spoilers about series 4, so if you don't want to know, don't read on.

I've been thinking about forced versus unforced deaths in Knightmare: we all think of Series 3 as being particularly hard as there were no winners, but is this the fault of the dungeoneers or the dungeon?

I class a forced error as one in which the dungeoneer was killed off whilst in 'Losing' status as described by bva elsewhere (all dungeoneers are in 'winning' status until they make a vital mistake that changes them to 'losing' status, from which they are not allowed to win).  Conversely, therefore, a dungeoneer who dies whilst still in Winning status is an unforced error.

Forced deaths are ones such as Julie and the goblins and Martin in series 3, where failure to answer questions properly resulted in losing status and death some time later. It also includes Cliff in series 3, even though he was killed in the next room, because he made the mistake of not dispelling.  I'm not sure where to class Helen from this series, as technically she was moved to losing status through picking the wrong spell to cast, but she was in winning status up to that point... I think I've just talked myself into classing it as a forced death, actually. ;-)

So, with my definitions, I classified each death in series 3: there are 5 unforced deaths and 6 forced ones (with 1 ending with the team still in winning state).  This is counting scott's brave jump across the missing step in Merlin's room as unforced, as if they'd not walked on after the jump they'd have been allowed to continue, I'm sure.  That's just under 50% of quests ending whilst a team was still allowed to win due mostly to guiding errors.

Compare this to series 2, which had 9 forced deaths, 2 winners and 1 in progress: only one death was an unforced error (team 7 trying to use spade instead of shovel with cedric).  If you're feeling very generous you might also claim the team that took the knife instead of the divining rod was unforced, but imho they were killed /because/ they took it, so were therefore in losing status for quite some time before their death.

And series 4: 3 forced deaths and 3 unforced, 1 win and 1 in progress that almost certainly would've been a winner had the series run been an episode longer.  Those unforced deaths were on the corridor of blades and block and tackle (I'm counting the death in the b&t by the current team as a forced death as, if memory serves me right, it was sped up somewhat and the team needed merlin's magic to get through it safely).

The point of all this is that it seem to indicate that Series 2 was actually harder than series 3 (despite s2 having two winners): you had to be good to beat the s2 dungeon or you'd be killed off, whereas in series 3 there were a LOT of deaths due to carelessness rather than dungeon nastiness.  Series 4 is difficult to judge as level 1 was vastly easier (no deaths in it this year), and 1 (nearly 2) winners, and just a couple of nasty manouvering rooms.

This is part of the reason I want to see s2 again. ;-)

Anyone (who hasn't got bored reading a post this long) got any thoughts? ;)

(Edits for typos and punctuation)

[WhiteFloatingSkull]

And that is you have MUUUCH too much free time.  

Actually, those are some good points. In this case, we really can say that carelessness REALLY does cost lives.

...As does offering presents to ultimately evil creatures...

Ahhh, so much fun to be had floating around and watching mere mortals make these rather silly mistakes. Who need's 'the weakest link' for contest elimination, when the greater game could make even Anne Robinson quake in her shoes...

[Pickle123]

hrm...i think this may be one of the best ways of assesing knightmare difficulty across the series'

on the note of anne robinson...CELEBRITY KNIGHTMARE

how funny would it be to see anne robinson, chris tarrent, sarah michelle gellar and anthony stewart head  tackle the greater game of luck and glory

[GrimaldineGrimwold]

So, with my definitions, I classified each death in series 3: there are 5 unforced deaths and 6 forced ones (with 1 ending with the team still in winning state).  This is counting scott's brave jump across the missing step in Merlin's room as unforced, as if they'd not walked on after the jump they'd have been allowed to continue, I'm sure.

Hmm. Some people would dispute the last point.

Anyway, I like the thought behind this a lot. One might, however, wish to avoid making conclusions like "A lower proportion of "unforced" deaths equals a harder series." I'm not sure exactly where you stand on this- perhaps you could elaborate for this interested reader. It might indeed mean that that year's dungeon was more consistently challenging, with more puzzles to solve. But I don't know if those many people who died because of manoeuvring errors on genuinely challenging floor puzzles would agree that their "unforced" deaths meant the challenge they faced was easier. (I suppose this is all a part of saying that it's hard to conclusively say that one series was easier than another- but that's obviously no reason not to at least try.)

Having said that, I'd agree on your conclusion. A lot of teams did die in S3 due to plain silliness or slowness. The fact that no-one won doesn't entail it was necessarily harder than other series.

[Pickle123]

maybe we should get the IQ's of all the teams and see if there's any correlation between IQ and winning ability

[Malefact]

*bomb fuse lights*

"Erm, do you think maybe we should sort of start thinking about considering discussing when it would be a good time to ask our dungeoneer whether it might be an idea to perhaps consider thinking about moving towards the exit, sort of like?"  :)

[GrimaldineGrimwold]

One thing I forgot to mention. As well as "unforced" teams who die through genuinely challenging obstacles, rather than silliness, there are of course also "forced" team deaths due to an earlier act of real silliness- not reading a scroll, not considering exactly what use an empty jar of humbugs would be, for instance.

[BrianApocalypseIII]

That was a really interesting read!  :-/

[Pickle123]

yeah i think Dan classed chosing a bad item as a forced death since it put them into 'losing' status??? i can't be sure. re-reads

[Dan]

Hmm. Some people would dispute the last point.

As is their right. ;-) I always thought it was a bit suspicious that he just walked on after making the jump, but I think maybe they just didn't explain the room's layout well enough and he didn't realise the path was so narrow.  In my opinion, if they'd been put into losing status by failing to get the question right in level one, it'd be incredibly unfair and silly of them to let the team get mid-way through level two before killing them off.

Anyway, I like the thought behind this a lot. One might, however, wish to avoid making conclusions like "A lower proportion of "unforced" deaths equals a harder series." I'm not sure exactly where you stand on this- perhaps you could elaborate for this interested reader.

I wasn't intentionally trying to draw that conclusion - what I was trying to say was that a higher proportion of unforced deaths makes a series seem harder than it is; these were people who were beating the dungeon and then threw the match, to mix and match metaphors. ;-)

What it might be better to look at, instead of series, is individual quests.  Some quests were certainly a lot more difficult than others.

I don't know if those many people who died because of manoeuvring errors on genuinely challenging floor puzzles would agree that their "unforced" deaths meant the challenge they faced was easier.

Agreed - and it's impossible to tell if the next room they were in was going to have a really difficult unique puzzle in it.

Take Ross's team in Series 3.  They were one of only 3 teams who got as far as level 3, and they were just as capable of winning as Leo or Martin, but then up pops an incredibly difficult manouvering challenge that sees them off (and only just, too - considering the let offs some teams got I thought this was a mite unfair).

The fact that no-one won doesn't entail it was necessarily harder than other series.

There was certainly less opportunity for the dungeon to prove that it could be beaten with so many teams faltering early on.

[Dan]

yeah i think Dan classed chosing a bad item as a forced death since it put them into 'losing' status??? i can't be sure. re-reads

Yep, I classed picking the wrong clue item as meaning the team were given losing status and as such their death would be forced (if the team didn't kill themselves off first).  Even with quite clear reasoning behind 'forced' and 'unforced' it's amazing how many teams are rather difficult to classify. ;-)

[Steve]

Hi Dan, found a few points in ur original post that i could clear up for you

and 1 in progress that almost certainly would've been a winner had the series run been an episode longer.

In the case of these teams at the end of the series who seemed to be "winning" i asked Bva about this(and posted his reply around here somewhere) it seems that they were actually "losing" status teams who's game was over as far as the gameshow aspect goes. this made it easy to pull them out and have the dungeon destroy itself. That would make these deaths forced deaths right? when the team was still on "winning" status at the end of a series they were given a sub quest to complete and probably recieved winners comendations dispite having not finished the dungeon example: series 6 with chris and team7(i couldnt say this for definate tho)


Another point - which corresponds to your post as a whole - Each quest seems to have a preset path, any deviation from which resulted in your team becomming a "losing" team.
this may sound quite strict but i believe the teams were given some kind of guidelines to adhear to (examples: always take the Right hand path, Never take a weapon etc... unless told otherwise)

I also believe that each of the items a dungeoneer could take is symbolic (gold=greed, Weapons=attack etc...) and by adhearing to the "adventurers code" at all times (unless advised otherwise) a team could easily keep themselves on the path - this is a point the current team seem to have picked up on - mind u in saying this ive seen in series 4 how any 2 combinations of items could possibly work in level 1 as long as they are used well. example with team 5 they could have used STEALTH to pass the troll and diamonds or the key to get past fatila.

Riddles etc (which also casused forced death when answered wrongly) seem to have been general knowledge and leniency was often shown on earlier levels if answered wrong (1/3 was good enough on level 1 but only a full score was adequate on level 3)

And the unforced deaths. given the nature of the game the guiding aspect seems just as important as the puzzel smart's. otherwise the whole game is nothing more than a pen and paper D&D game.

In some cases (eg: "simon sidestep to your left - BONG!") the directions from the advisors were just plain stupid, guiding the dungeoneer out of the game.
In the cases where a dungeoneer seemed to be "let off" it might have been due to a dungeoneer slip up (like when comming off that dodgy spindizy) or a fault with communication of the advisors directions. as long as the directions given by the advisors were sound the dungeoneer seems to have been allowed to continue.

As im sure we all know by now dungeoneers on "losing" status were often kept on for a few rooms - some for technical reasons(next lot hadnt arrived yet) and some for production reasons(getting to a point where their incorrect choice of item became apparent)
A few of the "unforced" deaths could also simply have been a "losing" dungeoneer getting killed off(remember series3 team 1?). It would have been a quick way to get the team out of the game once the next group arrived.
we may have seen team 2 die In the corridor of blades but were they perhaps a "losing" team getting killed off?
We will never know this for sure - even simon's death may have been staged!

Mind you when we were kids watching this show did we ever think of it like this? we just assumed that the poor wee man had fallen off the edge.

Now THAT is a long post, to those of you still alive after that, if you want to reply - i'd love to hear your opinions on my replies. good or bad(probably bad) I'm off to bed now, my fingers hurt ;D

[Pickle123]

goodnight matey...not too short a post i spose...i just wish you all could have witnessed the beauty which was my 3 POST LONG rant at GMP illusion quite rightly deleted it to aviod a flame war but i hope he kept a copy cause i didn't and it was one damn fine piece of work

erm...often corridor of blade deths came from not earning magic or from not picking up correct items so in some they would be on 'losing' status.

yeah...i think it's back to childhood roots of not caring and simply watching for meh

[Dan]

i asked Bva about this(and posted his reply around here somewhere) it seems that they were actually "losing" status teams who's game was over as far as the gameshow aspect goes

Yeah, I remember seeing that post around here somewhere and I did read it :-)

I'm not sure I believe it, though - it might well be true of later seasons where there was a definite storyline to complete, but the earlier series (1 through 4) were definitely not storyline-driven - there was no ongoing plot.  I'll have to wait until next week to see if I can determine Robin's team making a mistake or not... the last team in Series 3 though I don't think had gone wrong at any point, so it's hard to see how they could be in 'losing' status.

any 2 combinations of items could possibly work in level 1 as long as they are used well. example with team 5 they could have used STEALTH to pass the troll and diamonds or the key to get past fatila.

Yeah, I commented on this in another thread - series 4's level 1 does seem to be remarkably difficult to fail at.

As im sure we all know by now dungeoneers on "losing" status were often kept on for a few rooms

Yeah, which was good for tension, even though you knew they were going to get it ;-)  The team that turned their dungeoneer into a goblin - that just started going wrong then went horribly pear-shaped then it was frankly a relief when they were put out of their misery. ;-)

some for technical reasons(next lot hadnt arrived yet)

Like the team that actually died on the serpent's tongue...

A few of the "unforced" deaths could also simply have been a "losing" dungeoneer getting killed off [...] It would have been a quick way to get the team out of the game once the next group arrived.

No, not by my definition.  Any team that is being killed off is a forced death.  Or are you meaning 'we were going to kill this team off, but they managed to do something stupid anyway'? :-)

I don't think the production team would've struggled to think of a way to kill a team off if they wanted to.

(did someone mention darkness powder?)

we may have seen team 2 die In the corridor of blades but were they perhaps a "losing" team getting killed off?
We will never know this for sure - even simon's death may have been staged!

Oooh, so cynical!  BVA has said that all teams were winners until they messed it up - that'd preclude staging Simon's death, and I don't think you really could've scripted it ;-)

I don't think team 2 were being killed off.  We know what happens with the corridor of blades when they want to make sure a team gets punished for being unable to make their dungeoneer shout 'stop' after a descender has gone down a given number of levels.  ;-)

I'm off to bed now

Me too.  Different bed, though. ;-)

[Steve]

im actually back up Knightmare is on in 20 mins - gunna watch it AGAIN

A few of the "unforced" deaths could also simply have been a "losing" dungeoneer getting killed off [...] It would have been a quick way to get the team out of the game once the next group arrived.  
No, not by my definition.  Any team that is being killed off is a forced death.  Or are you meaning 'we were going to kill this team off, but they managed to do something stupid anyway'?

My point here is that it might be hard to tell if the team are being killed off (forced death) or if they have actually made the mistake here via their directions (unforced death)
Killing a team off by showing them to guide their dungeoneer off a ledge would be the quickest way to get them out of the game once they become a "losing" team. In the event that there wasnt enough time to let them continue to a point where their mistake would become apparent they could have used this - although yeah in some cases it probablly stupidity  ;D

I'm not sure I believe it, though - it might well be true of later seasons where there was a definite storyline to complete, but the earlier series (1 through 4) were definitely not storyline-driven - there was no ongoing plot.  I'll have to wait until next week to see if I can determine Robin's team making a mistake or not... the last team in Series 3 though I don't think had gone wrong at any point, so it's hard to see how they could be in 'losing' status.

There doesnt need to be a storyline or detailed plot (the main goal has always been the same - to get to the end of level  3 and get the quest object) all that is needed is a preselected series of obsticles which the dungeoneer will face and set objects and spells which the dungeoneer must collect in order to pass the obsticles. a "winning" team could (and have)become "losing" team after the first clue room just by taking the wrong object.

In series 3 the last team could have lost this way but were kept on as the end of the season was so near and they couldn't risk the next team still being "winners" by the actual end.
Theoretically they could have made the wrong choice in the level1 clue room and were allowed to continue with their quest edited to 'carry' them untill the dungeon began to break up.
Perhaps we were MEANT to think that they were a winning team that was ripped from their quest.

As a child watching this you would probably have thought they were rescued - just in time - from the disintegrating dungeon and that it was this which bad fortune ended their quest.

Jeez another long post, Knightmare has already started!