Series 2

Treguard: "Well we always knew Cedric would clobber someone sometime." Or to put it another way: "Yes, we not only kept a homicidal maniac around and allowed him to carry a deadly weapon, we gave him a role where it was his duty to commit murder." I wonder if Treguard knows how lucky he was not to have an HR department. One interesting way - OK, one possible way - to compare different eras of Knightmare is to swap series and quest numbers around. In other words: to compare aspects of this quest, S2 Q7, with aspects of S7 Q2. Treguard's final speech to S2 T7 was one of his most sardonic. (Though it would have been hard for him to commiserate with a team who'd been given the most generous, idiot-proof Knightmare adventure in history and still messed it up.) S7 T2, on the other hand, got Uncle Treguard: dithering ("W-what we need is the Nightsight, where's the Night- ... aw, they haven't got the Nightsight"), doting and perhaps the most compassionate "Ooh nasty" in all of Knightmare. (Though had he wanted to be sardonic, Lord Fear's gloating voiceover would have somewhat stolen his thunder.) I much prefer S2 Treguard.

According to Stuart, he has vague memories of being told by the production crew that the spell would have turned him into a giant.

When choosing their objects in the level 2 clue room one of the advisors said to take the key & gold as we can just remember the emblem. Presumably this team had done their homework and learned from the downfall of S1 team 1.

I should add the other bias is the number and usefulness of hints teams receive. I've seen one or two hints given out that pretty much tells them the answer, whereas in other situations a team has had only subtle hints in which they still need to think to use it.

Rewatching this as an adult I can see how fixed this programme is (was). Compare this quest and IMO unfair death for failing to collect the pieces of a spell, which was impossible to collect with the speed the automatum came in and headed straight for the right hand piece, with the earlier winning team quest which almost got spoonfed a victory.

My theory is the phrasing of the riddle might have thrown them. The wall monster said "what moves the waves?", whereas what he meant was what causes the tides, but waves have nothing to do with tides, so they didn't pick up on what he meant. Wind is what moves waves, unless it is a tsunami which is generated by a submarine vertical displacement. A small part of me would dearly have loved to have watched a wall monster, tree troll, or whatever present a riddle only to get a highly technical answer like this in return.

Without pressure from Treguard, the team would have been free to decide their own course of action. They may have opened the bottle at the earliest opportunity. Or they may have decided to carry it with them until they met a character who could shed light on it. That was my point. And in clearly acknowledging it as a moot point, I wasn't trying to win anything, nor to cancel out the post from Martin (who I know has discussed this quest with dungeoneer Julian/Jason himself).

Has anyone noticed that Mogdred starts laughing before they've finished errornously dispelling the word? How on earth did he/John Woodnutt know they were going to get it wrong and miss the O so quickly? After all the stuff that's been said about the 'SHRUD scene', by me and by others - including a recording and video of my Let It Be/Letter O song parody by two nice people on Twitter - I wasn't sure I had anything further to say. But after watching it again recently, I've realised that, despite how entertaining it is, it just doesn't feel right to me. Parts of it feel too convenient and too contrived. For example: Mark knowing immediately to dispel SHROUD – you can hear him saying "Right, say 'Dispel'" before the spell has even taken hold – yet repeatedly making an elementary mistake. This happens to turn an encounter that would've been brief and anticlimactic into a unique and entertaining episode. One advisor saying "Dispel" before a different advisor does the dispelling: this isn't logical and I can't recall any other team doing this. More precisely, what happens is: Jason says "Dispel"; it cuts to Mogdred looking startled; it cuts back to the advisors and Mark is doing the dispelling. "Turn spell": totally unexplained. Treguard giving a hint that so specifically complements both his constraint and the team's mistake ("Oooo"), followed by a bigger yet equally specific hint ("Le..tter... O"). If these were thought up for Hugo Myatt on the spur of the moment by Tim Child, they confirm his brilliance. Before his correct dispelling, it sounds like Mark is double-checking that "Dispel" is the correct term, despite his instant certainty about using it earlier. The timing and nature of some of the advisers' comments, particularly Mark saying "Yes! We've got him!" when the aim was to undo the shroud with no expectation that Mogdred would be affected. In short, I've decided that I can't take the scene at face value. I find it easier to believe that it was staged or partially staged. This is, of course, speculation with no testimony to back it up. Having said that, one interesting fact has come to light about this period of the Series 2 filming. Stuart Leatherland, the next dungeoneer, said recently on Twitter: 'We were late to the party. We were asked to get there for the Friday morning but I had tickets for Dolphins/49ers at Wembley that weekend. So they let us go on Monday.' Well done to those of you who speculated about that earlier in this thread. Could it explain why Team 7 enjoy such a staggering amount of lenience, and minimal resistance to them reaching Level 3? Was their quest stretched because Team 8 were delayed? Might some rooms even have been retrospectively filmed and added? Again, speculation.

An interesting comment from Cedric when he and Mark encounter Ariadne: "You may not be able to go back but I can." A rare example of a character acknowledging the rules of dungeoneering. Another that comes to mind is Gundrada in Series 4 recognising the Helmet of Justice as Helen's "constraint". It makes sense for a companion character, as Cedric and Gundrada both were, to appreciate questing rules.

It is possible for the dungeoneer to fail if they are not careful. If the dungeoneer is located against the left hand wall, and the bishop is able to move to the right of the dungeoneer with a two square separation, the dungeoneer will be trapped and be forced to move into the direct line of sight of the bishop, where they will be captured (killed). The dungeoneer should not be moved to the edge of the board unless it is absolutely necessary or it is clear the bishop cannot move to the trap square. This is true, but the team would have to be pretty awful at chess to get in such a situation in the first place.

If you wanna be picky, how could she see that the jar was empty from the other side of the causeway? To quote another great wizard, "That's mmmmmmmmmmmagic!" Lillith is a sorceress after all, and can probably do all sorts of tricks to enhance her vision. More interesting question is how she knew where Anthony comes from if she didn't have a clue who he was when he arrived in the cavern twenty seconds earlier? Do people from Ash have a particularly distinctive accent?

Haha yes Knightmare had more than it's fair share of saucy puns which escaped the CITV sensors.... (Somebody has already mentioned the one about bumptious' plunger later in this episode.) That's more a description of the actor playing him, rather than the character himself! There was a discussion about the Automatum's weapon a while ago. I don't think it's a morning star - because a morning star has spikes - this may be a flail: a similar thing, but a more blunt instrument. I always thought the Automatum's weapon - we never see him without it - was part of the machinery itself, rather than something being carried by a separate entity. As he is a construct, that was my assumption! I hadn't heard of a flail before. You learn something new everyday. Thanks.

Series 2 was brilliant. It took the basic formula of series 1, which was very good, and made a few minor alterations/additions. Also, there were twice as many episodes, so far more adventuring. One of the finest details was the extra imagination put into the demise of some teams. Mogdred gloating at team 5 in a dead-end room, or team 8 trapped in a never-ending cycle. Good to see some familiar faces return including Cedric, Gumboil, Folly and of course Merlin. Lillith still provided a genuine threat to teams in level 1. We finally got to see Mogdred. What a first appearance, really giving team 3 the hurry-up. Mildread was a great addition as was Olaf. Igneous was a good addition to the wall monsters. The speech from the wall monsters had been streamlined somewhat, removing some of the tedious repetition. Just a few things i didn't enjoy. Bumptious and Casper were both extremely annoying and the intro speech to each new team was still too long-winded. My favourite moments: Team 3 being turned to stone by the medusa. Teams 4 & 10 mastering the dungeon. Yay! Teams 6 & 11 incurring Lillith's wrath, with inevitable consequences. Team 8 trapped in an endless cycle.... Team 7 and their difficulties with magic.

The first ever winners! Yay! Right from the start this team looked competent and they were worthy winners. That cavernwight really got after them at the start of level 3. Hurried them into taking the left-hand exit. The gargoyle scene was a little too long. Collected a spell for a bit (well, quite a lot) of flattery. Took a very long time to reject Mogdred, before finally making the correct decision. The only "nearly" moment was in the stained-glass window room, just how close was he to stepping into that chasm? He was right on the very edge. Then, one advisor mixed up his left/right and told him to sidestep left!!!! Unbelievably, the dungeoneer also mixed up left/right at the same moment and stepped right to safety!!!! Somehow they contrived to make two wrongs equal a right, and survived. (As they were on the brink of victory at the time, this would have been far worse than another infamous "sidestep to your left!" moment from series 4.) Not sure why they were arguing about the exit from the dragon's lair. It seemed obvious. Great to see their reaction when they completed their quest tho. They seemed genuinely excited. A great team

This is a fantastic episode, with one of my favourite Knightmare demises. Finally, the first appearance of Mogdred. He certainly gave them the hurry-up. This team were generally good at directing their dungeoneer, but where was he going on the mills of doom? Those cavernwights were after him like a shot a the start of level 3. Cavernwights don't usually show such a turn of pace. They did well, not only to escape, but to actually reach the right hand door. Ultimately, like team 6 in the previous series, they were undone by a single mistake in the level 3 clue room. But that's level 3, it has to be unforgiving.... They seemed to have done their homework (and studied the previous series) coz they picked Joshua's fabled horn, before choosing their other item. Sadly they went for the gem rather than the magic shield. (Altho a shield is not a weapon, they may have erroneously thought that, like weapons, it was of no use to the unsighted dungeoneer.) They may have narrowly missed out on glory of being the first ever Knightmare winners, but still achieved a certain fame with their demise at the gaze of the medusa. It was a great touch that the 3 advisors were all turned to stone as well. Their entire quest was well paced, just 30 minutes, even tho they almost reached the end of level 3. That would be unimaginable in later years.... Spoiler alert: By the time future teams reach the medusa's chamber, somebody has mysteriously removed the Christopher statue....

Another lively episode. Team 2 didn't last very long, which wasn't surprising. Great to see Cedric back and on top form: "More dung than ear by the look of it." One advisor nearly jumped off her chair when he first leapt up and shouted at them. What surprised me about their quest was how short level 1 seemed. They were already three rooms into level 2 when they met their end and yet their total quest time is listed as only 17 minutes. In the later series they wouldn't even be near the end of level 1 after that time.... Team 3 seem a bit more positive. Needed some prompting in the clue room, but finding their pace now. The advisor wearing the glasses didn't say much. I wonder if he was sulking coz he forgot to pack his tie & yellow shirt. Dramatic sound effect when they pressed the bell, altho maybe more suitable for a tense moment in level 3 than the opening room. First appearance of Olaf. I always enjoyed seeing him looting&pillaging the dungeoneers, a lighter moment in the series. Mildread up to her tricks again when the bell sounded.

A good pace to this opener. I felt very sorry for team 1. They looked like they could have done well. It reminded me of team 1 in the 1st series, getting 2/3 answers, but having to guess which object to take and choosing wrongly, with fatal consequences.... Team 2 seem rather less organised. They answered 3/3 (albeit with easier questions) but still only took the correct items after Treguard all but instructed them to leave the cup! The new series follows on nicely from the first, with a few changes, but mostly familiar ground. The intro for each new team is still too long-winded tho, and not keen on the wheel-of-fortune opening. Why not just put the teams directly into their first room? Igneous is a great addition as a rather bad-tempered wall monster, in a new room. Gretel is a very charming addition to the dungeon and Mildread has quickly shown that she is a threat to teams in level 1.

Series 2 over all was very solid.. getting to see Mogdread was a treat, and it had some of the most unusual deaths, lots of atmosphere but the Mildread stuff could have been much better, the only time we ever see Treguard in the dungeon. I however didn't like the winning quests, both teams were pretty much handed a win on a plate but at least we finally get to see a win. I loved Combat Chess, it added variety, I have the patience to sit through a puzzle (it was the dragon flights that came later that frustrated me) Series 2 is pretty much an extended version of series 1.

Welcome to the forum VixieBen! Always good to see new people join the forum and hope your enjoying the re-run of Knightmare on Challenge! Good luck in getting hold of Mark!

As I understand it, someone at Anglia stated a few years back that it was the same dragon, but I find that very hard to believe. Owen was a very kindly, affable and approachable creature, if a little condescending, whereas the season 2 version was very hostile, aggressive and carnivorous. They also appeared to be of two different nationalities (although the idea that a dragon of thousands of years of age would submit to the 9th Century boundaries of the human race is doubtful).