Series 4 Episode 3
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Kinda ironic John Woodnutt (he playing Merlin/Mogdred) would cause a death due to a dungeoneer casting a spell too slowly, after the previous series had Merlin taking a couple of blue moons to spellcast 'Energy'...
Still, finally a death.
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I believe they could've spellcast TRANSFORMATION in time had they have started from either when Mogdred appeared in the room or when the sword first appeared. Also had they have been quicker in making the decision to cast that spell and during spellcasting. In other words a matter of quicker timing.
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Take for example Kelly's team from series 3 when the advisor spellcast the TRANSFORM spell when mrs G went to get Festus in that blocked room. That was quicker spellcasting and the team survived in that room. I wonder what would've happened had they've cast the spell quicker. I think that has been asked before as well as what would've happened in they'd have spellcast the shorter spell.
Look out for the graffiti on the castle wall as they go down the steps in the eye-shield sequence!
I've just noticed that there is another thread for this episode that you replied last to in June last year Tom, where you were talking about the graffitti before.
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While spellcasting couldn't one of the other advisors moved Helen away from the path of the sword?
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Almost fell over walking onto the disc, and nearly fell off the ledge when stepping off! His foot actually hit the floor of the studio, but he was probably let off (rather like Akash's team, it would be a VERY short quest if they died here!)
I've just had a thought of a somewhat logical explaination. I believe that when Alistair stepped off the disk with one foot notice that he knelt down on the beam with his other leg, so technically he didn't fall off and so thats why he was able to carry on. He would've died had he of fallen off, i.e. both feet ended up off the beam or and he leant mostly to his right or and actually fell off.
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So gutted when Helen was killed so close to victory and for such a silly reason! I must draw on a valid point made above that Merlin often took an eternity to spellcast so why should dungeoneers die because of it! Wonder if they just couldnt allow the first team of the season win? I mean the show was in a brand new format, and to give viewers the impression that it was now easy to crack the dungeon would of been the wrong thing to do. Who knows? I surely don't. Classic quest though and ending it meant we got Alastair and his team who spent the entire quest talking over each other- when he got sliced that was satisfying!
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Don't forget, folks, that the CITV introduction to this episode is available on Knightmare.com! Scally cackles his way into another episode.
Team 1 (still!) get two spells from Hordriss, TRANSFORMATION and BUT. Except the former is obviously too much for the humble Amiga 2000, as it stops after 'TRANSFORM'. Either there wasn't enough room for the 'ORMATION', or it crashed. I'd go with the first option, as I didn't spot any requests to insert Workbench 1.3.
Beware Mogdrrrread! His floating head appears over the Blue Bridge of Beastliness, and after Helen decides not to pledge to him, he destroys it. But here he is again the next room, this time in the flesh. Quickly, spellcast BUT! No! Not...sigh. "Too slow!" cries Mogdred, and the team are defeated on the brink of victory. I often wonder what BUT would have done...would Mogdred have suddenly sprouted a large behind, leaving him incapacitated? We can only speculate as Team 1 wave their goodbye.
There's someone at the door! No, not Rod Hull and Emu (though that'd be interesting), but Alistair, dungeoneer of team 2. Instead of the old way of just having the dungeoneer walk into the camera, we now see a long shot of them entering the portal. A special effect would have been nice, though I'm still shuddering at the one used for Series 5.
The second famous moment of this episode occurs as Alistair clearly misses the ledge when stepping off the Spindizzy, though obviously not clear enough for a retake (remember, every team gets a second chance). I suspect that it is because of this scene that Johnny Burkhart's Knightmare site lists 'team 3's quest as lasting '13 seconds', as 'the first room took place over a huge chasm, and when the advisor said 'take a small step to your right', the dungeoneer took a massive one to the left'. It then goes on to describe team 1's death for team 4.
Sigh, Dooris. The only good thing about these weeping doors is the neat CGI animation of them opening up at the end. But hang on, Alistair tells him (?) to repeat one of the riddles, and...he does! Doorkis didn't for Helen last week half an hour ago! Thought he wasn't as miserable as Dooris?
Into the Eye Shield room, meeting Malice in wonderland for the first time. "Look, master, it sees!" cries Pickle of the Eye Shield, who appears to have forgotten the entirety of team 1's quest. This would get more ridiculous as the series went on.
We time out with Brother Mace having just ran through an elf path. Running's a good thing to do...it makes you elfy! Ha ha ha! Ha ha sigh.
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I haven't seen the full quest, just the clip on the site, but this has always bugged me.
The death caused by choosing a spell that took too long to spell out was, in my opinion, extremely unfair.
It had never been done before (or since), and unlike other advice such as "choose the right hand path", it was never told to teams. So how on earth could they have known that the length of a spell was a factor to be taken into consideration?
It's certainly not something that would ever occur to me if I had been in their shoes.
...Especially as in countless other quests, villains who are about exact death upon a dungeoneer noticably stand by and WAIT for the dungeoneer to cast the spell.
Furthermore, the team in S5 who defeated Aesandre found themselves in an almost identical situation, and had two spells - FIRE and FREEZE - to choose from as Aesandre towered before them about to unleash her wrath. THEY chose the longer spell, but weren't punished because of it (and let's remember that with TRANSFORMATION and BUT, the team had specifically been told that the first was the powerful spell, and the latter was not). What if the series 5 team had chosen FIRE, and died, but then complained to Tim Child that they were only following the example set by the show, of choosing the shorter spell?
My complaint is, how on earth is anyone, let alone a small child, supposed to know when ambiguous rules like this come into play, and when they don't?
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Making comparisons between different quests in different series is sometimes unfair. 'FIRE or FREEZE?' was not a length-based puzzle; it was about the team remembering Hordriss' clues (one spell frees the quest object, the other defeats Aesandre - rather a giveaway, since compared to burning, how likely would freezing be to release anything?) and not being deceived by Aesandre's metaphor ("fight fire with fire"). And with FREEZE being only two letters longer than FIRE, length isn't really an issue in my opinion.
However, making comparisons between different quests in the same series is often less unfair, and here, as they say, is one I made earlier:
The spell choice facing Dickon's team a few quests later - FIRE or OPPOSITE against Malice - was arguably more straightforward.
In short, I agree that Helen's team seemed to get a raw deal in the harshness of their Final Encounter. But for all we know, there were other behind-the-scenes factors involved that made it justified and 'balanced things out'. For example, bear in mind that Helen's team got all the way to the Final Encounter without facing either the Transporter Pad puzzle or the Corridor of Blades, both of which Dickon's team had to negotiate.
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It might have been fairer had the effects of the BUT spell been made clear beforehand; we can still only speculate even today on exactly what it was meant to do. Had the team been informed, it might have given them a clue. In the event, the only clue they got was that TRANSFORMATION was more powerful, so it stands to reason that they plumped for it in confrontation with the arch-super-villain of the entire Dungeon.
Alternatively, maybe they could have been allowed to find a scroll with a cryptic clue on it in the bridge cavern, just before Mogdred first appeared? "The best spells come in small packages" for instance.
villains who are about to exact death upon a dungeoneer noticeably stand by and WAIT for the dungeoneer to cast the spell.
That was probably the worst way in which the series would, in effect, break the fourth wall, especially given how frequently it would happen, and how static the action would become. In that respect at least, Helen's death-scene is rather refreshing. But it was still very unfair.
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They were in thrall to his Mogredian dark charisma. That is, they were just slow on the draw - they should have been getting ready to spellcast as soon as they saw him and that sword ( a bit slow on the crumbling walkway just before too). Obviously that's easy to say watching it back.
It was tough but I think it was necessary to protect the main villain, and to preserve the mystique of 'level 3'. As the show's top enemy it would have compromised his character and by extension the programme to let him be defeated too easily whereas by contrast giving him a really harsh kill like this it makes him look like a real bad ass. Ideally the young audience are watching with suspended disbelief and are left with the impression 'wow, Mogdred doesn't mess around - he'is really hard to beat' rather than 'wow, the producers are gits who won't let anyone win'.
The team's chance to decide what to do may have been when he was making his big speech about how he was going to kill them, but Woodnut is so awesome in the role they could only watch and listen.
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I do believe this was a very unfair death but think they died for 2 reasons.
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if u saw mogdred would you wait to cast a spell oif he turned up in person especially with the old flashing sword appearing.
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Team onhe always had it quite hard, so who knows first teamd bad luck i suppose
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I wonder, if the shorter spell had been made more obvious that it was defensive, would that have made a difference to their choice? Suppose it was 'block' or 'shield'. I think 'but' was pretty cryptic and the team went for something which they felt they could apply more easily to the situation. BUT, haha , I guess then there is the issue that the choice is made far too easy.
HStorm is probably about right with the scroll idea. My idea would be to produce a paradoxical clue - say for example: 'You could transform yourself later but wait a little while first' or words to that effect. Then it's still a difficult level 3 spell choice but the emphasis on 'but', if paid attention to, would allow them to use BUT on mogdred and then choose to use transformation later on in the level .
To sum up my thoughts, I think that although they were ill fated by bad luck, they might have got the blades afterwards - and would she have been lucky to survive that, especially as it would have been their first appearance.
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My instinct would also have been to go for the longer transformation spell. Same logic - you want to use the powerful spell on the powerful opponent.
That said, when the spells were given, I remember thinking "But...as in "but" or as in the "butt" of a sword?"
It seems unfair, given that they weren't really given any clue. But perhaps the dev team made a mistake? I mean, if they hadn't prepared a response to "transformation" being cast, they were buggered. Even if they had a suitable response ready and the "transformation" spell was needed later on then they would only be prolonging the life of the team so they could die later on.
As always, we just don't know what was cut or what was planned. Maybe the dev team was upset with them. Maybe the players needed to go home in an emergency...maybe they did something utterly stupid that we didn't get to see. The only thing we know is the explanation of the death seems unfair
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