The new KM episode is up!
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The team could have got further if they hadn't missed the short cut to Level 3. Did you spot it from the sidelines as they were going along, Alan?
Indeed. I believe the team actually took the short cut to level 3 though? >:-]
I'm glad that Slice Me Dice Me got another outing. The team seemed to make the same judgement error that Scott's team made in Series 3: they jumped when they could have taken a long step. But I'm impressed that they had worked out the correct route.
While Slice Me Dice Me was being set up, I recall deciding that it's a VERY hard room. Taking a long step when you're blindfolded is tricky, but possible. You can, after all, extend your leg across and then transfer your body over if your leg is in the right place. Jumping is another matter entirely. While blindfolded, you can't even tell how far you're about to jump, let alone how far you've actually jumped, because you lose all sense of relative location when your feet leave the floor. Having to jump the correct distance several times is, therefore, extremely hard.
However, I'm not entirely convinced that a long step was possible here. The distance looks too great to do it safely. Remember that if you overbalance in taking a long step, you'll lean forward and your extended leg hits the floor. If it's in the pit, you fall.
Add the difficulty of the axes, which seems to discourage a team from slowly taking a long step, and I think you have the making of a very hard room. The team's reaction to the axes, though, is priceless
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Hmm, well... generally a great bit of nostalgia, but let me get a few gripes out of the way first.
The first few minutes were - sorry but I'm gonna say it - pretty awful. So much time wasted listening to the new assistant effectively telling, in an enormously convoluted way, the archaic joke about, "Ah'm gonna clean up dis town... no, I'm literally gonna clean it, where's the broom?" You don't like your job, Verruca? Right, sure, we get it already! Did you need to take up the first five minutes of the show telling us that? Knightmare works best when it gets to the action quickly, and set-piece intros like these always take too long - they usually got longer and longer with each passing season. Don't continue that pattern, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease! GET RID.
Actually, what was the point of Daisy/Verruca at all? Nothing against Isy Suttie, who wasn't bad in the role, but what was the point of the character? Once the intro was (FINALLY!!!!!) over, she hardly said anything for most of the episode. I've said it many times before and I'll keep saying it. Treguard doesn't need assistants to help him present the programme, and he never did. They would do no harm as dungeon characters, but in the antechamber? GET RID.
And it's a shame they decided to use the third version of the title music, which has always been by far and away the weakest. Get rid...
Once all that infantile stuff with Daisy was got out of the way, however, things turned much, much better very quickly. As you'd expect, the visuals have come on a very long way, and it was great to see some of the classic architecture of the early seasons upgraded to more modern resolutions. Interesting also to have even the Great Hall in CGI now. Bit of a culture shock to see the old level one and level three clue rooms in sequence like that, but also a great 'nostalgia-gasm'.
Also wonderful to see 'Slice-Me-Dice-Me' retained and refurbished from Knightmare VR. It always looked the most promising puzzle from the last revival attempt, and it looks like the new standard for quest-killer-extraordinaire.
The new CGI incarnation of Ariadne was far creepier than the video-clip version from the series, because for the first time we genuinely couldn't predict what she would do.
Had to rewatch the scene with the bomb a couple of times before I understood what happened. Still not completely sure that using the IGNITE spell at that point was necessary.
Hugo Myatt was on great form, like he'd never been away. He seems in some scenes to have really brought back the very sinister quality of the early Treguard. Especially good was his delivery of his old, "It's only a game... isn't it?" sign-off at the end. Oh the 12-year-old me was shivering and smiling all at once! The original 'Lion In Winter' outfit still suits him, even if the changes to the colours look a little too exotic. It was also interesting to watch him as the team manoeuvred around, as he seemed to adopt a very uneasy, wincing expression, as if to say, "Young-uns today, they just don't know how it's done!" Could've done without some of the asides to the camera early on though.
Mark Knight and Cliff Barry came across as under-used, but that was probably more because the team didn't get very far into level 2 than because of bad writing. It was again great to see them back in action (why did you not take part in KMVR, Cliff?!?), but I have to say again that the new Lord Fear outfit is wrong in every way. Not just the bizarre shape of the headwear, but the whole costume from tip to toe. Excellent make-up though, for both characters, and even if their voices were a little croakier than they once were, they were still in every way the voices of Lord Fear and Lissard as only they can play them. (And yes, I'm saying that as someone who has played Lord F quite a few times myself.)
As for the new characters, they were somewhat generic. Sylvester the jester is not a jester, he never comes up with a single joke in either the scenes he appears in, just talking in a stereotype medieval style of speech. He more reminds me of Brother Strange than of Folly or Motley. It also doesn't help that his name has already been taken previously in the KM universe. But he was very well performed.
Less impressive was Theodora, who came across as just Sylvester-Hands-sans-beard-and-other-bits, even commenting in a very Sly-Hands way on the way the dungeoneer can't see anything. The way she was acted was also a bit EastEnders.
I refuse to believe that the "You're-in-a-room-I'll-need-a-bit-more-info-than-that" bit wasn't an entirely deliberate swipe at teams from the series. Sounded like it was lifted from the Knightmare Audio Series in fact.
I suspect the general lack of incidental music and sound effects was due to lack of budget, but in truth I found the absence of the former most welcome. I often found the music crow-barred into later seasons to be nothing more than a signpost telling the audience that this is the moment you are supposed to be scared, and it felt a lot less condescending to be free of it here.
But that goblin horn sound effect? Dear oh dear.
The team were kind of fun, if a little dominated by the guy on the left. (No, I don't know his name. Sorry for my sketchy YouTube knowledge.)
Oh well, it was largely worth waiting for, but as I say, it would've been even better if it hadn't over-embellished the beginning with irrelevant, unfunny, time-consuming rubbish. Always great to see Hugo and Mark back in their career-roles though!
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I deliberately made sure I wrote and posted the above review before I read anyone else's thoughts - I sometimes find my opinions being shifted by reading other people's views, as though I feel sheepish for thinking differently, so the most honest thing to do is just say what I think before I dare to look at anything else. But it's interesting to see that most of my thoughts, especially about the beginning of the episode, seem to be more or less unanimous.
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Didn't slice me dice me work in the context of KMVR because the dungeoneer could see the puzzle? It does seem almost impossible when translated to the traditional KM format. Last obstacle of the quest hard at the very least but perhaps unworkable.
Treguard is very subdued though, right up to the final scene. My girlfriend asked if Hugo was ill...!
Re. the swearing - several times through headphones I heard the f word - even with my eyes shut tight, willing myself to hear 'heck'
Just watched it on my TV - pretty sure it's 'heck'.
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Hi guys. Long time Knightmare fan here, just joined the boards and made a first post in the newbies section! I have a lot to say about this new episode and do agree with some of the things you guys are saying, but I might be a different type of fan since I preferred the later series of the show (controversial maybe?) But I will get into that tomorrow when I get home from work and draught a better response.
For now though just let me join you in rejoicing in the fact that I just watched a NEW Knightmare episode for the first time in over 15 years!!
Welcome, you are not alone mate. I also prefer the later series of Knightmare! Well apart from the first few minutes was a good episode, my only gripe is the fact it felt a bit too much based on the early series but still loved it and would love the show to be back!
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I deliberately made sure I wrote and posted the above review before I read anyone else's thoughts - I sometimes find my opinions being shifted by reading other people's views, as though I feel sheepish for thinking differently, so the most honest thing to do is just say what I think before I dare to look at anything else. But it's interesting to see that most of my thoughts, especially about the beginning of the episode, seem to be more or less unanimous.
I'm not sure it's unanimous on the forum, even among those that have posted. It's certainly a minority view reading the Facebook and YouTube comments.
In my opinion, the introduction is necessary, little more than an extension of a typical "team intro", and does little harm. I suspect that an equally sized group of people would have whined had there been no real nod to the passing of 20 years.
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The team were kind of fun, if a little dominated by the guy on the left. (No, I don't know his name. Sorry for my sketchy YouTube knowledge.)
He was Dan...sorry I just felt like aiding your knowledge
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We have to consider this was a quickly, rushed, low budget production for Youtube. It's sucked, but no doubt a proper version would smooth off all the ruff edges. You'll get a new title sequence, sound effects would return, a proper chamber for the team and all that. Agreed the intro was VERY poor, and what one earth was their quest? and why?
Other than the dungenner the team was everything I feared. It has little to do with Knightmare and more about them doing a spoofy version of the show. What was worse they kept cutting to the team and we were missing what was going on in the dungeon... obviously this was done for the their 'fans' who watched it for them not the quest itself. Didn't like the lack of riddles and the team only had one challenged which they died. (Helmet of Justice looked fan made)
The new Jester/sad clown is one of the highlights, thank god Motley is long gone, the spider, re-designed of the rooms were nice.
Their weren't too many high points really, Doesn't work with adults either.
Problem is this wasn't good enough for anyone to want a new series, certainly made the show look like a joke, goes on the pile with KM VR I'm infact. And it was too spoofy to be considered a Demo or pilot.
Oh well, Not impressed but I understand it was cobbled together are such short notice on a shoe screen budget. At least it's giving KM some exposure
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(Helmet of Justice looked fan made)
It's the Knightmare Live helmet. Apparently they've lost the original one
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Wombstar, that's a bit bleak! At the very least it shows that there's a superb TV format being wasted as long as KM isn't on our screens.
I wonder if we'll get to see the deleted scenes at any point?
I too like the new jester - a 'serious fool' in the Robin Hobb mould.
I think the show could perhaps work with adults who weren't used to being on camera. This lot were obviously very confident and had no respect for the dungeon master which is why they felt they could talk over him!
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OK: some notes on the reprised Knightmare.
Google didn't want us to show them what a new show would look like, and although they wanted the players to be adult geeks, they were hooked on nostalgia, They also wanted me to take full advantage of two new members of cast who were brought in by them at no small expense. Actually I thought both new girls were excellent.
When it became clear that we had neither the time nor cash to rebuild the live set, I opted for a virtual one as the only choice. We had no time in which to build anything more than basic, so to conceal its deficiencies I packed the opening with a few special effects (like Treguard's transformation) to 'busy' things up. Unfortunately this had the side-effect of slowing things down, and the front of the programme lacked pace. For those of you who remember the Knighmares of the 80s with the aid of 19 years worth of rose-tinted glasses, I would remind you that those programmes often had less pace than a tortoise.
Setting the game difficulty level for a team of highly intelligent adults (no matter what some of you thought of them - they were just that), was also problematic. And I thought we got that about right. Few of the best children's teams would have survived the 18 odd minutes of game-play we threw at them, let alone the scenes you did not see. They coped faultlessly with most of the logic puzzles, and were cruising towards a point when we were planning to freeze time and give them an honourable draw, when they suddenly did something quite silly and killed off their dungeoneer. The credit for this goes to 'Slice Me Dice Me' simply one of the best puzzles we've ever used in Knightmare, and one which also offers immense flexibility and genuine threat.
This team of adults were so intimidated by the giant blades that they neglected to 'shuffle' Stuart to the edge of his 'safe' pallet, from which point the jump to the next causeway was practical.
Given the unexpected bonus of a dramatic ending to the show, I then had to chop seven minutes from the adventure scenario in order to accommodate it, and I don't regret doing so, even if some of the edits did inevitable telegraph themselves even to an inexpert audience. Losing a couple of strategic cut-aways to a software glitz when encoding, didn't help either.
It was interesting and intriguing pitching game at adults, the more so because there is little chance in today's market for Knightmare re-emerging as a children’s show. Neither is it likely to re-appear in a half hour format, because today even game-show formats eschew this, and a dramatised adventure game of any ambition will need more time and space to breath.
The short form also renders them financially prohibitive.
I understand why some of you felt moved to criticise, but believe me when I claim pre-eminence in the matter of criticism. Although I’m saddened that some of you didn’t like the new show, it doesn’t particularly surprise me. It wasn’t made only for you, but to address the demands of a commercial client who had their own legitimate agenda, and no vested interest in the future or otherwise of the format.
TC
Firstly, my heartfelt thanks to you and everyone else involved for agreeing to do this. I'm well into my adult years now and inevitably have seen a few things I wish I hadn't. So, when a wonderful treat like this appears seemingly from nowhere and gives me a moment of sheer delight, it is all the more precious.
Headlines: I think everyone did a fine job especially given the constraints involved. This episode felt like Knightmare and I was absorbed. The returning regulars have lost nothing. I'm also reminded that you write some lovely dialogue that is every bit as essential to Knightmare's existence as Chromakey. Slice Me Dice Me is even more intimidating than Play Your Cards Right. Their reaction when the blades swung was my favourite bit. I think Knightmare still works and adult players are a fun new vein. I hope so much this is seen as a backdoor pilot that leads to more, with resources that allow you to craft what I feel sure will be an essential and much-loved addition to a wonderful creation.
With gratitude and affection,
Andrew
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it is a bleak opinion, but that's because my childhood tv show has now been reduced to being a parody of itself for 'youtube emo celebs'
Not that I want to be a purist but this really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.. and it's all down to the teams. In particular the two emo blokes. They didn't even come prepaid with pad and pencil. They were trying so hard to find a way to crack a joke and live up to their 'stage personality' pity they couldn't be themselves.
But as I say it shows that a updated version can work and I take note this was kinda cobbled together for youtube.
It reminded me of that horrid Doctor who special from the early 90s LOl .
I'm putting it to one side with the VR pilot. As someone else said in this topic is not a real episode but a 'dvd extra' lol not canon.
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In my opinion, the introduction is necessary, little more than an extension of a typical "team intro", and does little harm. I suspect that an equally sized group of people would have whined had there been no real nod to the passing of 20 years.
Ah, but nobody's objecting to there being a nod to the passing of twenty years. In fact, the opening wouldn't have been so bad had there been a little more focus on that - say, a little more explanation for what had happened in between times. What has Lord F been up to in all this time, for instance?
But part of the problem is it only briefly mentioned the passing of twenty years. Instead, much of it was taken up with Verruca bellyaching in a deeply unfunny way about her job, as though we're expected to care about that when we only first laid eyes on her thirty seconds earlier. It's not entertaining, it's not relevant, and it's not needed. All it does is delay the start of what people actually want to see.
As I say, it would be a lot, lot better if they just didn't bother with assistants at all. Then they wouldn't have to waste time with an introduction scene for them, they wouldn't keep getting in Treguard's way, and they wouldn't keep reducing him to a parody of himself.
I don't mean to give the impression that I didn't like the episode, or that I have an aggressive hatred for Verruca/Daisy. Neither is the case. But I do think Knightmare should stop doing these over-developed 'comedy' intros, if only because they're never anywhere near as funny as they seem to imagine they are.
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OK: some notes on the reprised Knightmare.
Google didn't want us to show them what a new show would look like, and although they wanted the players to be adult geeks, they were hooked on nostalgia, They also wanted me to take full advantage of two new members of cast who were brought in by them at no small expense. Actually I thought both new girls were excellent.
When it became clear that we had neither the time nor cash to rebuild the live set, I opted for a virtual one as the only choice. We had no time in which to build anything more than basic, so to conceal its deficiencies I packed the opening with a few special effects (like Treguard's transformation) to 'busy' things up. Unfortunately this had the side-effect of slowing things down, and the front of the programme lacked pace. For those of you who remember the Knighmares of the 80s with the aid of 19 years worth of rose-tinted glasses, I would remind you that those programmes often had less pace than a tortoise.
Setting the game difficulty level for a team of highly intelligent adults (no matter what some of you thought of them - they were just that), was also problematic. And I thought we got that about right. Few of the best children's teams would have survived the 18 odd minutes of game-play we threw at them, let alone the scenes you did not see. They coped faultlessly with most of the logic puzzles, and were cruising towards a point when we were planning to freeze time and give them an honourable draw, when they suddenly did something quite silly and killed off their dungeoneer. The credit for this goes to 'Slice Me Dice Me' simply one of the best puzzles we've ever used in Knightmare, and one which also offers immense flexibility and genuine threat.
This team of adults were so intimidated by the giant blades that they neglected to 'shuffle' Stuart to the edge of his 'safe' pallet, from which point the jump to the next causeway was practical.
Given the unexpected bonus of a dramatic ending to the show, I then had to chop seven minutes from the adventure scenario in order to accommodate it, and I don't regret doing so, even if some of the edits did inevitable telegraph themselves even to an inexpert audience. Losing a couple of strategic cut-aways to a software glitz when encoding, didn't help either.
It was interesting and intriguing pitching game at adults, the more so because there is little chance in today's market for Knightmare re-emerging as a children’s show. Neither is it likely to re-appear in a half hour format, because today even game-show formats eschew this, and a dramatised adventure game of any ambition will need more time and space to breath.
The short form also renders them financially prohibitive.
I understand why some of you felt moved to criticise, but believe me when I claim pre-eminence in the matter of criticism. Although I’m saddened that some of you didn’t like the new show, it doesn’t particularly surprise me. It wasn’t made only for you, but to address the demands of a commercial client who had their own legitimate agenda, and no vested interest in the future or otherwise of the format.
TC
Great to hear from the legend and the brains behind Knightmare! Apart from first few minutes, and considering the constraints you have mentioned, I thought it was a great effort for one episode and first since 1994 and thanks a million!
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You know what, I didn't consider the fact this was being worked on to a supplied brief - it didn't occur to me at all but makes complete sense.
I have had a second watch through and whilst I stand by my comments in my original post, it is still good to have had something, albeit not quite what we are used to, of Knightmare. Whilst there is something in it for us oldies, I do hope this raises the profile for the young 'uns, what with the trendy YouTube kids being on it. I am definitely old, I have no clue who the advisers were!! At least I am cool enough to say I knew who Ashens was!!
I still think it sounded like wtf though...!
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Watched on the commute to work at 8am. Loved it!
Thought the team playing were great. I'm not too concerned as to how they played it - I'd have actually been more disappointed if the production was played as straight as the original shows. Both the team and production were faithful to the format/game while acknowledging - and having fun with - its aged audience.
Thanks to all involved in this production - a fitting and loving tribute, paving the way for something new! Considering this was only filmed a fortnight ago, that's a pretty tight turnaround to get it edited. I can imagine the budget was extremely tight too and suspect that there were a lot of contributors working above and beyond in order to make this production happen. Particularly delighted Mark Knight flew over to reprise Lord Fear - that's real commitment by all to ensuring this would be something special!
In terms of future... A web-series production seems the ideal platform for Knightmare (a Kickstarter campaign?! I'd chip in to production costs for the chance to be a dungeoneer!) I'd hope that the show would evolve though as it has done here...
If this is to be the end, I'm really happy for the show to have had its own opportunity to say 'goodbye'. It helps close the chapter on a very distraught 10-year-old searching the September TV listings from 1995 onwards!
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it is a bleak opinion, but that's because my childhood tv show has now been reduced to being a parody of itself for 'youtube emo celebs'
Those "youtube emo celebs" (a term that I strongly disagree with and suggest you may wish to drop) are helping to get "your" childhood tv show back.
Not that I want to be a purist but this really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.. and it's all down to the teams. In particular the two emo blokes. They didn't even come prepaid with pad and pencil."
Might I be so bold as to suggest you conduct a little fact-finding before forming your conclusions? Particularly if you're going to be so negative and particularly if you're going to state them publicly?
Are you under the impression that previous teams have provided their own note-taking equipment and that this team simply couldn't be bothered? Is that your assumption?
They were trying so hard to find a way to crack a joke and live up to their 'stage personality' pity they couldn't be themselves.
I met them and hung out with them back stage. I therefore feel that I can say with some degree of authority...
They were being themselves.
But as I say it shows that a updated version can work and I take note this was kinda cobbled together for youtube.
This is perhaps the most confusing statement that you've made. You say that "it shows a updated version can work". However, you've attacked every(?) difference between this episode and previous episodes of Knightmare shown on YouTube. So exactly what "updates" do you believe are shown to have worked in this episode?
Far be it from me to come across as sycophantic. There are things in the episode that I wouldn't have done, there are a couple of bits that needed a tweak, and there are highs and lows to the episode as is the case with every episode of Knightmare; If every episode was nothing but floor puzzles, I think it would quickly get boring.
However, the general style and feel of the episode is what matters, not the specific individual encounters, nor the individual team. You're writing off an entire concept based on a few encounters and one single team. But I feel confident that the same could be done with virtually any series of Knightmare.
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I loved it. I thought it was fun, I thought it was fresh without turning its back on what we know as Knightmare, and I think it's been a long time coming!
So there were cuts and shakes and things we might not have chosen for a new ep. We forget that we're the diehard fans that know the original series inside out, and in reality it was not made for us alone. The whole thing was a brilliant nod to something that still entertains two decades on, and the crew behind it had a lot more to consider than they would if they were making it for the fandom with a large budget to blow.
Tim did a stellar job and you know what? He got us talking. He may even be taking notes right now, just in case...
I will be holding my breath for an online Series 9. Dreaming? Maybe. But this is the best thing that has happened in the fandom for a long time and I'm not going to waste my breath being closely critical.
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It was like I was ten years old again, just for 30 minutes. The first time in almost 20 years I was watching an episode of Knightmare and I didn't know what was coming next. For me, that was the most important thing. I just hope we don't have to wait another 20 years for the next one.
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In my opinion, the introduction is necessary, little more than an extension of a typical "team intro", and does little harm. I suspect that an equally sized group of people would have whined had there been no real nod to the passing of 20 years.
Ah, but nobody's objecting to there being a nod to the passing of twenty years. In fact, the opening wouldn't have been so bad had there been a little more focus on that - say, a little more explanation for what had happened in between times. What has Lord F been up to in all this time, for instance?
And thereby immediately alienate, right at the critical time period, the much bigger audience who either doesn't know or doesn't remember, but is somehow expected to care, who or what "a Lord Fear" is?
But part of the problem is it only briefly mentioned the passing of twenty years. Instead, much of it was taken up with Verruca bellyaching in a deeply unfunny way about her job, as though we're expected to care about that when we only first laid eyes on her thirty seconds earlier.
As far as I can see, she only does this between 1:47 and 2:30. A mere 43 seconds. During which, she makes a couple of jokes and refers to an NPC that we meet later. Also during these 43 seconds, Daisy explains a great deal about the dungeon. She refers to magic, she states that the dungeon is full of "creatures of darkness" and she implies that she has a recent, working knowledge of the dungeon.
You might think that's wasted time, but consider that in a mere 43 seconds, she's explained who she is, why she's there, what she'll do, who Treguard is, and the nature of the dungeon. To someone who doesn't know what Knightmare is, or only vaguely remembers it, that's critical information that's been provided upfront and helps ensure that they continue to watch. Even to you, who knows most of that, she's given you her name and purpose.
It's not entertaining, it's not relevant, and it's not needed. All it does is delay the start of what people actually want to see.
No. It delays the start of what you and I want to see. It is essential information to anyone who comes to this with significantly less knowledge.
As I say, it would be a lot, lot better if they just didn't bother with assistants at all. Then they wouldn't have to waste time with an introduction scene for them, they wouldn't keep getting in Treguard's way, and they wouldn't keep reducing him to a parody of himself.
Well, that's simply a subjective "taste" thing, and I can't argue with that. It is by no means a unanimous view, and had there been no assistant then I'm sure another bunch of people would be clamouring for one. Either way, the production team appear to lose.
Of course, if it was Treguard on his own, it would be a little shorter. Though I imagine you'd still have similar references to the dungeon being "full of monsters" and the presence of "magic" in order to explain to the audience what's going on.
I don't mean to give the impression that I didn't like the episode, or that I have an aggressive hatred for Verruca/Daisy. Neither is the case.
/quote]
No worried. For the record, you're not giving such an impression
But I do think Knightmare should stop doing these over-developed 'comedy' intros, if only because they're never anywhere near as funny as they seem to imagine they are.
With respect, that's your subjective view, and shouldn't really be presented as a fact.
You don't find them as funny as they were intended. It doesn't mean that they aren't as funny as was intended.
Looking at the youtube stats there are 7193 "likes" and 170 "dislikes" giving an approval rating of 97.7% from the target audience. On the whole, I'd have to say that the episode has therefore been a success and did its job.
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