Series 8, Episode 10
-
Well said Iona Kennedy had the best female characters on the show Greystagg and Sidress. Nice to see her pop up last few episodes after the actress had been away due to being pregrant!
Anyway was weird watching last ever episode 15 nearly 16 years later after I first saw it, and firstly dont understand the Dunstan cheat comments they only did what Knightmare crew set them to do, would have been better to see them do more challenges at the end, rather than chuck on a team that would only be on for about 5 minutes or so! Looked a bit rushed last episode but still generally enjoyed it though bit sad to think it was last ever one, esp seeing Smirky on his last flight on a rescue mission!
-
Iona Kennedy was indeed pregnant during S8 filming. She appeared as Maldame of course, but from a tale I read some years ago the Sidriss character had to be shelved for the first half of the series because her dress didn't fit. No idea if that is true or not...
Still, as they didn't know this would be the final episode, there is very little which makes it feel any more special than the usual end of season episode. Indeed, it seems a darn sight less special than the previous 2 season finales.
Nice to see Smirky get his final flight, and Lord F's sign off is both menancing and hilarious at the same time.
I should give it a watch, has been a while!
-
Iona Kennedy was indeed pregnant during S8 filming. She appeared as Maldame of course, but from a tale I read some years ago the Sidriss character had to be shelved for the first half of the series because he dress didn't fit. No idea if that is true or not...
I've had a look at this.... Iona Kennedy in the "Sidriss" costume doesn't appear until Episode 5 - worth noting that this is as Lord Fear's Bimboid creation however in an attempt to deceive Hordriss. Iona Kennedy's first appearance as the real Sidriss comes at the very end of Episode 6.
-
Iona Kennedy was indeed pregnant during S8 filming. She appeared as Maldame of course, but from a tale I read some years ago the Sidriss character had to be shelved for the first half of the series because her dress didn't fit. No idea if that is true or not...
As far as I'm aware, this is the genuine reason.
I quite liked the final episode of KM overall... it's always good to see a winning team, especially in the final episode. I'm not sure Oliver's quest was particularly necessary, and especially not getting him to Level 3 in under five minutes! (I would have much preferred him to undertake a side quest that could have been done in Level 1 and then ride Smirky back to Knightmare Castle at the end...) But then again, without using the shortcut, Dunstan may not have won - not that I think he'd have died in Level 2, they may just have run out of time. Not all winning quests can coincide with the end of the series as well as Barry did in S7!
There's no special end of season this time. No breaking up dungeon, no trolls, no dragons and no Christmas. Not that there needs to be, but LF's closing line did leave KM on a bit of a cliffhanger and for that reason it's a shame that KM ended where it did. If they had got another series, they would have known it was the final one and done something more dramatic. But I guess what's done is done, and for what this is, it's a decent enough episode that perhaps could have been handled a little better.
-
Yes I thought the story had some accuracy in it, probably why I remember it after so many years
If indeed they had known it was the final episode, they would have almost certainly tried to do something more with it.
I do feel sorry for that final team being crammed in at the last moment. They weren't half bad...!
-
Treguard sounds very surprised when Oliver is instructed to "walk northeast".
The Miretrog's footsteps sound exactly the same as those of a stone troll to me - I wonder how Sidriss is able to tell the difference!
Did you notice, in the Corridor of Blades, they didn't bother spellcasting the BURST spell - or even activating it in any way! Still, the blades were slowed down to normal speed...
I'm guessing they did the whole spellcasting routine, but then the incident with Oliver running through the side wall happened (as seen in Slow Hand and mentioned in Paul Boland's report), and when they refilmed the Corridor of Blades, they forgot or couldn't be bothered to do the spellcasting again. Although it's equally possible that they forgot all about it in the first place, as with the hourglass in Mike's quest which was presumably intended for use in Fireball Alley.
-
Kinda disappointed with this episode and the one before. The teams got off way too easy and very obviously too. I don't know why they skipped level two with the previous team when they could have ended the series with a winning team.
The next team again should have been fire balled or died in the corridor of blades. It's a far cry from the earlier seasons that showed little mercy for annoying teams giving poor directions.
Shame the series had to end but I remember not liking this season and the one before much when I watched it originally.
-
I've just watched the last two episodes again and took notes this time.
Since the last time this was discussed, there's still been a little controversy over Dunstan's Level 3, and whether or not it was easy. I'll contend that his Level 1 kind of was, although he did survive Fireball Alley in order to get into the shortcut.
However, according to the notes I've made, he had five chances to die in Level 3 (six if you count the final encounter with Lord Fear, which I don't). In fact, four of the things he faced already had a kill to their name (CoB: Daniel; Miremen: Rebecca; Reach for Runes: Richard; Raining Fireballs: Nathan), and he got past all those!
Very good in getting all three riddles from Snapper-Jack, too. Not all teams got those, although I'm annoyed that he didn't give the answers to incorrect guesses in earlier episodes!
The Maldame bit is confusing - it's a plot thread that isn't really resolved; we get her calling name and her favour and Treguard then says something cryptic about her having more power than LF thinks. I always thought that was a hint that she should be called during the final encounter, but I also recall Alan claimng that Tim told the team calling her would have resulted in their death.
Alan - confirm?
I suppose maybe Firestorm of Marblehead didn't raid Linghorm anyway, as Oliver manages to make it there without any sign of damage whatsoever in the same episode...
All in all, a tough Level 3 to make the victory fairer.
I've previously said that I would have preferred a longer Dunstan quest as opposed to having Oliver's team start. I now think completely differently; Oliver's team are bright and original (I like the compass points directions, as long as you know where they're going). It's fairly clear that they were never going to win - they didn't have time; they probably could've - but, unlike earlier final-quest teams, they weren't given a task to do in lieu of a win.
I'm just going to guess that one wasn't written. Even by Knightmare standards, half an episode isn't really time to concoct and resolve a subplot. I'd have liked to see one, of course - but at least Oliver got through all of Level 1 and into Level 3; that takes some doing!
I know I've weighed in on this before (in this thread, no less)... but, after watching this again, I've decided I like the final episode more than I thought I did!
-
The Maldame bit is confusing - it's a plot thread that isn't really resolved; we get her calling name and her favour and Treguard then says something cryptic about her having more power than LF thinks. I always thought that was a hint that she should be called during the final encounter, but I also recall Alan claimng that Tim told the team calling her would have resulted in their death.
Alan - confirm?
It was either Tim or the floor manager who came to collect us from the green room for what turned out to be the final confrontation with Lord Fear. We were told that Maldame was only a level X sorceress and so was unable/would not fight Lord Fear for us.
However, knowing full well what a paladin is, we had already concluded that there was nothing more appropriate for fighting Lord Fear than a paladin, and so we had pegged the bottle as being necessary to defeat him if we came across him.
I have come to a new conclusion regarding what that loose end was all about though. I think the production team hedged their bets and that the Maldame calling name was intended as an end of series finale that would take place during our quest.
As I've said before, the production team were never entirely sure how much game time was remaining (this is largely dependent on editing of the filmed episodes) and we were repeatedly told that we might only be running for fun (playing without having a chance of winning). Indeed, as I've said before, the production team hadn't even written an ending for our team. Therefore, if/when we ran out of time, the production team could introduce a situation in which we had to use Maldame's calling name and thereby finish up the series story by having her 'defeat' Lord Fear or somesuch. As it turns out, we were very fast/good at solving the puzzles and we got through the level 3 rooms very quickly. That left the situation in which there wasn't enough gameplay. The production team then demoted the usefulness of the calling name by telling us it wouldn't work, and then brought in a new team in order to add more gameplay and tie up the loose ends of the story.
-
If the short cut had not been introduced that's exactly what they could have done I guess, I wonder why they didn't just do it, have you do a 'series finial' quest and still filmed another normal team quest afterwards if time allowed, that quest could then aired before yours instead even if it was filmed after.
It's very easy all theses years later to suggest this and that I know, it's very different at the time it's all happening. Still very fascinating though.
Another option maybe would have been to use Maldame to return home once lord fear was defeated and the quest object collected.
-
If the short cut had not been introduced that's exactly what they could have done I guess, I wonder why they didn't just do it, have you do a 'series finial' quest and still filmed another normal team quest afterwards if time allowed, that quest could then aired before yours instead even if it was filmed after.
Well....
Firstly, I assume they introduced the shortcut because they wanted to have the shortcut in there. The fact that they could have eliminated it and thereby not required the last time is irrelevant if they want the shortcut mechanism.
Secondly, your suggestion would have the slightly odd consequence of killing off a team when the series ends. It's all very well requiring a team's quest to end because of the end of series, but actively killing them off (in order to show our "end of series" quest) would be a little harsh. It would basically be implying that the team had made a mistake or done something wrong when they hadn't. That isn't really Tim's style.
-
Indeed forcing a kill is unfair, but giving a team a short cut when others didn't have the option also seems a bit unfair.
There's no perfect solution, it's just fun to imagine other possibilities.
Although it was pretty nice having an old style end of series without a winner and without some big story line so I kinda liked it.
-
Indeed forcing a kill is unfair, but giving a team a short cut when others didn't have the option also seems a bit unfair.
Firstly, there's a magnitude of difference between the two.
In the former, you're not giving the team a chance at all and merely forcing the event. It's automatic death, no matter how good or bad the team was. At this point, it stops being a game because there is no chance to win.
In the latter, it's still a game because there's still a chance to win or to die. I would argue (although others may disagree) that doing the CoB as opposed to doing L2 minus the CoB barely changes the odds (I think both have about a 60% death rate?). Therefore, the shortcut doesn't even dramatically change the odds. A good team still win whereas a bad team still die. Certainly, a bad team would still die in L3. Fundamentally, this is why I don't consider our victory to be unfair. It's hard to say that we would have failed L2 when we did so well in L3.
This was the situation as it was presented to us, but as it turns out, it was probably wrong - since there would have been time for us to do L2 after all.
Phrased differently, a bad team might not choose to go through the blades. But you'd certainly expect that team to die in L2.
Secondly, I'm not quite sure why you're connecting the shortcut to the end of series. It feels like a bit of a non-sequitar. As I said previously, the shortcut was there because they wanted the idea of a gamble. It wasn't (AFAIK) there to enable a series finale to take place. Therefore the whole question is moot. It might be that the timings are such that if they got rid of it (and the final team) then my team could have had a full L2. But that doesn't help if they actively wanted the shortcut concept to be in there.
Just as a side point, and something else that has occurred to me....
I'm not entirely sure that the argument "we would have had time to do L2" is necessarily true. Some rooms (the CoB) are very quick to set up and yield a few minutes of gameplay. Other rooms take much longer to set up for the amount of gameplay that you get. We completed our quest late on a Tuesday afternoon and gameplay had to finish by Wednesday afternoon. It is possible that the L2 rooms would have taken much longer to set up and film than the L3 rooms. One point in support of this hypothesis is that it appears that a different VR system was in use for L3 as opposed to L2.
It could therefore have been the situation that, had we done L2, we wouldn't have been able to film enough gameplay in time. This would have resulted in a weird L2/L3 as the production team tried to put in gameplay-generating encounters that were quick to set up.
-
Worth noting many teams has both a level two and a Corridor of blades to contend with, so the odds of death were far greater. So some might say it was a bit unfair to other teams who had to play the full dungeon. I suspect this wouldn't even be an issue for people had the team not won.
Nobody is saying it was an easy win as there were far easier wins over the years, but the knightmare short cut will be a debate that will go on forever and divide opinions
-
Worth noting many teams has both a level two and a Corridor of blades to contend with, so the odds of death were far greater.
Not necessarily. Just because you have one puzzle of difficulty X and another puzzle (or group of puzzles) of difficulty Y does not mean that the total difficulty is X+Y. Indeed, I suspect the total difficulty is MAX(X, Y) + DELTA. In other words, it would be equal to the highest difficulty of the two puzzles (because if you can do one, you can do the other) plus a very small increase to represent the fact that it's always possible to make some fluke mistake.
Phrased differently (Tim's argument): If you can handle the blades, why would anyone think you would struggle with L2?
So some might say it was a bit unfair to other teams who had to play the full dungeon. I suspect this wouldn't even be an issue for people had the team not won.
Some might say that, but they'd be saying it without any real analysis (real analysis here is almost impossible). Those teams that faced L2 and the corridor of blades didn't face other things that we faced in L3, which could be argued to be even harder. For example, the final fireball room has a kill rate equal to the corridor of blades (he said, abusing statistical analysis to make his point).
Nobody is saying it was an easy win as there were far easier wins over the years, but the knightmare short cut will be a debate that will go on forever and divide opinions
Probably. But I think the quest only appears to be unfair because of how it is presented - an entire LEVEL being removed. This is, of course, completely meaningless because level sizes, difficulties, and durations aren't standardised.
Viewed objectively, the corridor of blades seems substantially more dangerous than the L2 experienced by, say, winning team 4 of series 2, who had Cedric to help them most of the way. I think L1 and L3 are comparable across both quests.
In terms of the length of the quest (35 minutes) it's also comparable to team 4, series 2 and the same(?) as team 10, series 2, who also won.
But, well, appearance tends to be everything
-
I agree.
Many deaths were also down to mistakes and errors as you pointed out so someone may expertly survive the blades could accidently fall off a level 1 ledge, watching series 3 on challenge the first team were looking good before stepping on quick sand.
Certainly agree about 'appearance' The short cut gives the appearance a huge chunk of dangers have been removed, so the viewer gets the impression the team has been giving an easy ride because of it.
I always thought the Series two winners appeared to have had the easiest wins.
I wonder how many teams beat the blades but still lost the quest? I can't think of any off the top of my head
-
I wonder how many teams beat the blades but still lost the quest? I can't think of any off the top of my head
I can only think of Sophia in Series 6.
Also Simon in Series 4 (Team 4). Even if Gundrada physically guiding him through the Corridor of Blades makes it as passive as an eyeshield sequence.
-
Hey everyone
I appreciate it's been many, many years - not just since this episode but even since the last replies. How time flies and now we're into 2019.
Lately I've been enjoying some nostalgia - returning to much of the great stuff that happened in my younger years. Let's call it pre-middleage crisis.
Anyway, I have read through this thread numerous times and it seems I might be able to fill in a bit of detail in the gaps Mystara hasn't been able to, as well as share my own take on events. At this stage I should probably introduce myself as Oliver, the final dungeoneer.
The issue of the shortcut is pervasive on here and Mystara has done a great job at explaining his understanding - I'd like to add a few points, too. In doing this, I will quote parts of others' posts and respond as I go. This might take us via the scenic route, so I apologise if this becomes an essay, but well. What else is there to do on New Year's Day!
STRIKE said: *Dont understand the Dunstan cheat comments they only did what Knightmare crew set them to do, would have been better to see them do more challenges at the end, rather than chuck on a team that would only be on for about 5 minutes or so! *
We had earned the right to contest. I honestly do not mean to blow any trumpets but we were told our audition was one of the best Tim had come across since they first beefed up the process back in Series 5. An unfortunate schedule clash (more on this below) meant that we filmed last and I'm not sure how fair it would've been on a team of excited 12/13 year-olds to have come all that way, only to be told, Sorry kids, no deal. Safe home. Remember - when a team was in play, the following team HAD to be called in on standby as there was no way of knowing whether the team in play, in this case Dunstan's, would last or lose, and when.
NAITCH said:I have no feelings of annoyance towards Dunstan or Oliver and their teams as some have over the last 11 years, though I do wonder what the point of having the final quest (Oliver) was if it only lasted 8 minutes and had no chance of being a winning quest.
Harbouring annoyance at either Dunstan's team or my own would be unfair. As others have already noted, the production crew laid out our options, just like they always do. It is the team's decision as to how to proceed. The real injustice was that Series 8 had only 10 episodes as opposed to the usual 15 or 16. Still, if anything was not so much unfair, but unfortunate, it's events in the background that played out re: the teams' scheduling (as above, more on this below).
OLDBOY said: *The teams got off way too easy and very obviously too. I don't know why they skipped level two with the previous team when they could have ended the series with a winning team. The next team again should have been fire balled or died in the corridor of blades. It's a far cry from the earlier seasons that showed little mercy for annoying teams giving poor directions. *
I am not sure either Dunstan's team or mine were guilty of giving poor directions. There was one moment where Matthew (one of my advisors) tried telling me to take the wrong thing, but I had no intention of listening to him. Otherwise, my advisors did a good job at navigating me, especially Anthony in the Corridor of Blades. I'm not sure why my team (or any) should have been killed off when we were doing alright.
Neither of the final two teams were forced to take the shortcut, but the option was there. As Mystara points out, the production team were never entirely sure how much game time was remaining (this is largely dependent on editing of the filmed episodes) and we were repeatedly told that we might only be running for fun (playing without having a chance of winning)...the shortcut was there because they wanted the idea of a gamble. It wasn't (AFAIK) there to enable a series finale to take place.
At this stage, regarding my team's short tenure - a little history might help understanding. When we passed the audition, we were advised the approximate weeks (across a couple of months, July and August I recall) that we may be called upon. We were also told we would hear back sooner than that as to what order we would film in. When we got that call, we were advised that our team was scheduled to film second (out of the seven in all). Unfortunately, Matthew (advisor in the middle on the show) was booked to be abroad on holiday at the time we got the call. Tim was cool about it, but said we'd have to go to the back of the queue as a result. We'd still feature, but we'd go last. There wasn't a lot to be done about it and in the end, that's what happened. By the time Dunstan's team completed, we were left with what amounted to about 18 minutes' screen time as I recall. Nobody's fault, but an unfortunate circumstance that meant my team never had an unrestricted crack at the whip, but that's life.
As a side note, the shows' durations vary between 22 and 25 minutes; in the end, my 18 minutes of screen time was cut to around 14 minutes.
Anyway, back to the shortcut. Tim advised us like he had Alan and the rest of Dunstan's team that we may not get to complete, but that there would be too much time spare to not start another quest. That is as much as they could tell before editing took place. Hence, the short cut was introduced, but discretionary. The sole reason I was keen to take it was because it guaranteed a crack at the Corridor of Blades - my favourite trap of all Knightmare's traps and if I had the chance to have a go at it, I wasn't going to turn it down.
POOKA said: I've previously said that I would have preferred a longer Dunstan quest as opposed to having Oliver's team start. I now think completely differently; Oliver's team are bright and original (I like the compass points directions, as long as you know where they're going). It's fairly clear that they were never going to win - they didn't have time; they probably could've - but, unlike earlier final-quest teams, they weren't given a task to do in lieu of a win...at least Oliver got through all of Level 1 and into Level 3; that takes some doing!
Thank you for your kind words (and to Kieron, as well). We always knew our compass point system would be different, but it worked for us when it came to practising. In between rooms, Tim and a lady (I forget who) repeatedly advised us of their approximations as to how run times etc. were shaping up, noting they were only able to guess. There was a belief that we had a chance - very small, but still a chance - at completing (an admittedly shorter than usual quest), if we took the shortcut. In that sense, we all got the impression that's what the production team wanted, as well. Perhaps, in hindsight, Pooka's idea of a shorter side quest would've been better but that obviously wasn't our call to make.
A couple more points before I wrap up (promise).
CANADANNE said: *I'm guessing they did the whole spellcasting routine, but then the incident with Oliver running through the side wall happened (as seen in Slow Hand and mentioned in Paul Boland's report), and when they refilmed the Corridor of Blades, they forgot or couldn't be bothered to do the spellcasting again. Although it's equally possible that they forgot all about it in the first place. *
We did indeed film the Spellcasting sequence; David (the advisor nearest Treguard) performed the honours (that was his allocated task on the team). I also believe a decision was made to excise it from the show to buy us a little more time. As I said, I think our total screen time was 18 minutes - we 'lost' 4 along the way, on the editor's floor
As for the running through the wall sequence - in spite of the fact the COB is one of the areas I recall best, I don't remember that happening clearly. What I do recall is that after we filmed the scene where the dowsing stick revealed the shortcut, as we were returning to the green room, one of the production crew (can't recall who) whispered to me that the COB was coming next. Now, as a team we'd practised this at home long before we got to Norwich. It was agreed of all advisors, Anthony had the clearest head and instructions, so he'd issue the guidance.
When it came to filming the sequence, I had obviously been told it was coming (not a massive spoiler, given the Spyglass reveal about the shortcut and the quicker blades), and as I'd been practising, I was pretty keen at leaping left and right. I got a bit carried away and knocked the portable wall that served as the right hand wall of the corridor so that it wobbled and shunted sideways (the left wall was the usual, more permanent left wall of the studio, so running through that wouldn't have been possible ).
After that happened, filming was paused briefly and the floor manager (who was my favourite member of the entire crew, Ian Craig) came up to me laughing and with mock incredulity, 'accused' me of knowing in advance the COB was my next room. Fond memories of not having the deceit in me to lie and deny it.
Anyway, that's my experience of filming and some of the behind the scenes explanations for what happened in the end. I've always thought, on the one hand, it is a shame that my team didn't get the chance to have a proper go and either win or die - as we would have had Matthew not been on holiday - but on the other hand, though we didn't win, we didn't die and I do at least get the unique achievement of being able to say I was Knightmare's very final dungeoneer (I am not counting the rather excellent more recent one-off from a few years back).
If anyone has any questions they'd like to ask and think I might be able to help, go ahead, albeit I appreciate it's been some years since activity on this thread and many may have moved on. In any event, a very Happy New Year to one and all.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login