Those that were denied...
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Yes, in practice, the sight potion/spell/whatever is a macguffin. It's sole purpose is to be collected so that you can use it. I discussed it with Tim a while ago, and he mentioned that they were never entirely satisfied with it.
In practice, I recall that one team dies as a result of not having sight when a troll steps in front of the advisor's "view" - at least according to Treguard. I guess that's the sort of situation in which sight might be useful. But, again, it's a bit of a fix. They justified the use of the solution by introducing a new problem.
I don't think any of the team were particularly happy about how this feature worked out.
If the producers were not happy with the sight potion/spell could the have not dropped it?
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Not after they've filmed it, no.
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I doubt it. It would have involved fairly substantial rewriting at the last second. Suddenly you need a new item that has to be collected, plus a new encounter in which to use it, which would necessitate an additional room being added in which that item has to be used. That involves adding yet more stuff, and chaos ensues.
Not to mention, how do you decide whether it's worked or not after a single attempt? It really takes several, trying different things, before you can conclude it wouldn't work.
Having invested in it and set it up and, presumably, being convinced that it can be made to work, I suspect that the team were keen have a good crack at it, and so tried fiddling with it to try and make it work in the way they wanted.
Finally, it may just not be possible to tell until you see the viewer reaction or the final cut.
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Maybe a better way would have been to get the dungeonner to have a good look at the room from a monitor, yes he'll be blinded again once they get back to playing the game but he'll have a ruff idea what the room was like, (after all adviser descriptions are never great)
Perhaps with modern technology the slight spell could be improved.
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Regarding the last teams of Series 2-6 and 8, not only it was unfair for those teams about being told like 'Sorry, the path is closing', they were lotteries. I think that the Lotteries And Amusements Act 1976 was breached, as the outcome for those were 'non-skill'.
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I'm just going to put this as bluntly as I can. Like certain game shows or similar, they normally have "returning" champions/players. To which I say, people like Karen (Series 2) and Chris (Series 3) Should've been allowed to return as Team 1 for the following season. Yeah true they might just end up dying like every other first team but at least they can get what they came for. An honest, clean and 100% crack at bringing the dungeon down
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In reply to Kieran, we did complete the Transporter pad room. It was the Adventurer's Code that advised the right-hand path, at least the version of the Code we read for Series 4. So our approach was to choose right in the absence of any specific reason to the contrary. Again, we didn't go right twice in the Transporter pad room (and by the way, the feet shot was from a previous quest but on ours we did see Giles' feet) and end up on the knight. You just can't generalise from me saying 'Right then?' as though we indiscriminately chose to go right: rather, it was clear to me that either path would have not landed us on the knight to begin with.
Being allowed to finish that scene seems a good compromise between the cost of studio time and offering something to us beyond the strict cut-off time. As I have said a couple of times in the forum, I would like to know what the Tiny spell would have been used for specifically. The producer said he thought there were four more scenes and would have to check the script. I didn't get the impression he wouldn't have told us what the next scenes would have held, but I didn't ask at the time.
On the subject of codes, our contract specifically mentioned the possibility of an end-of-series curtailment, and we were informed we were unlikely to have time to finish the quest about halfway through Level 2.
In terms of whether we were winning, it's really hard to say because technically we made a wrong choice on Level 1, looking for a 'works' into which to throw the spanner and running out of side exits. They let us off on the grounds that they always 'allow one Level 1 [mistake]'. Whether you think there should have been a pseudo-physical mechanism into which to throw the spanner or you think (as I've later realised) that the corridor itself could be construed as the works in a magical sense, it just shows how people see things can affect the outcome as much as logic, communication and teamwork. Ask Season 4 Team 1, I guess!
At that time they still had our backup team on standby, so let's assume we were 'fairly' allowed to continue (partly, I think, because I said 'throw the spanner down the corridor' - in exasperation at not finding said 'works').
Corridor of Blades - the production team checked it through; that was really close but we survived it.
Block and Tackle - strictly we would have died here on the first take (this explains the panic on the second take!), but then how fair is it to make the dungeoneer enter at 45 degrees with four large steps? The floor fell away while we were turning Giles to the correct angle. Had we been facing the same way as Team 1 (i.e. straight ahead) or not been so far into the room at the start (possibly due to Giles' enthusiasm) this might not have happened. Perhaps had this not been the end of the season, we would have faced the Block and Tackle on Level 2, as other teams did.
Door monsters - I think we scored 2 out of 3 on Level 2 (and Level 1, for that matter). So had the Level 3 door monster been put in for us to face, there's no guarantee we would have got 3 out of 3 - presumably the score required for Level 3.
I don't think the rest of the team were as disappointed to be so close and yet denied the chance of winning as they have since made out, at least at the time. Apparently at least one of them made a rude gesture when we were waving goodbye, which might explain why it wasn't shown - or perhaps the production team thought the scenery didn't look wintery enough. We also filmed an alternative 'goodbye' for international distribution, when it's not Christmas.
Looking back I can't say we definitely would have won. I do say the Block and Tackle wasn't fair, which I probably wouldn't have thought at the time. Does it matter if Knightmare is fair? Not unless the previous series have given you the expectation that it normally is fair, or should be, or is intended to be. Comparing Knightmare to life sounds worthy but, for me, is really beside the point for a television gameshow! Those last few scenes were a lot of fun, Giles' responses were generally very rapid and accurate, we enjoyed the experience and clearly it was memorable for a lot of fans.
P.S. Did I say I'd love to know specifically what the TINY spell was for?
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Welcome back, Brett. 25 years on, it's good to know that you're as interested in analysing your quest as we are.
Block and Tackle - strictly we would have died here on the first take (this explains the panic on the second take!), but then how fair is it to make the dungeoneer enter at 45 degrees with four large steps? The floor fell away while we were turning Giles to the correct angle. Had we been facing the same way as Team 1 (i.e. straight ahead) or not been so far into the room at the start (possibly due to Giles' enthusiasm) this might not have happened. Perhaps had this not been the end of the season, we would have faced the Block and Tackle on Level 2, as other teams did.
You're right that Block and Tackle entry points were not consistent. As I've said elsewhere, if Simon (Team 4) had entered as far to the right as Helen (Team 1) did, his infamous sidestep left would not have taken him down the hole and who knows how differently that scene could have turned out? Perhaps the entry point depended on how the team had been doing up until then, i.e. your team's let-off(s) in Level 1 might have led to you being given a trickier Block and Tackle start.
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P.S. Did I say I'd love to know specifically what the TINY spell was for?
I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty certain that it would have reduced the size of Giles to allow him through a gap or something (since certain spells throughout the show like BIG and GROWME did the opposite, and 'downer' pills did the same). It's a shame that we don't know about the effects of uncast spells, but I suppose that's one of the things that we still debate about!
Of course, it could have summoned the hobgoblin introduced two years later, but I doubt that somehow...!
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P.S. Did I say I'd love to know specifically what the TINY spell was for?
I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty certain that it would have reduced the size of Giles to allow him through a gap or something (since certain spells throughout the show like BIG and GROWME did the opposite, and 'downer' pills did the same). It's a shame that we don't know about the effects of uncast spells, but I suppose that's one of the things that we still debate about!
There was also the LITTLE spell in Series 2 which was used to shrink the Troll. My guess would be that TINY was for shrinking Mogdred, just because it would actually defeat him in the final encounter... if Giles simply escaped into another room, I'm not sure what would prevent Mogdred from following, since he can materialise wherever he likes.
Of course, it could have summoned the hobgoblin introduced two years later, but I doubt that somehow...!
Ha, I like this theory, unlikely as it may be.
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P.S. Did I say I'd love to know specifically what the TINY spell was for?
I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty certain that it would have reduced the size of Giles to allow him through a gap or something (since certain spells throughout the show like BIG and GROWME did the opposite, and 'downer' pills did the same). It's a shame that we don't know about the effects of uncast spells, but I suppose that's one of the things that we still debate about!
There was also the LITTLE spell in Series 2 which was used to shrink the Troll. My guess would be that TINY was for shrinking Mogdred, just because it would actually defeat him in the final encounter... if Giles simply escaped into another room, I'm not sure what would prevent Mogdred from following, since he can materialise wherever he likes.
Agreed. In Quest 1's final encounter, Mogdred towered over dungeoneer Helen to begin with. So the idea that Giles could have beaten him by getting smaller and popping into another room is not one I find convincing. It wouldn't have done justice to Mogga or to Knightmare's overall premise of final encounters (the villain being overpowered or forced to withdraw).
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that TINY was for shrinking Mogdred, just because it would actually defeat him in the final encounter... if Giles simply escaped into another room, I'm not sure what would prevent Mogdred from following, since he can materialise wherever he likes.
Agreed. In Quest 1's final encounter, Mogdred towered over dungeoneer Helen to begin with. So the idea that Giles could have beaten him by getting smaller and popping into another room is not one I find convincing. It wouldn't have done justice to Mogga or to Knightmare's overall premise of final encounters (the villain being overpowered or forced to withdraw).
Oh, good point. I don't seem to recall either winning team of Series 2 having to face a final encounter with Mogdred before becoming champions, but yes, I'd forgotten about Helen and her defeat on the brink of victory.
Having thought about it, that might be more logical since I don't recall Giles having anything else that would have caused any threat to one as powerful as Mogdred.
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Thank you to Pooka and the others who have joined me in musing about the TINY spell. The producer said there were about four scenes left, without checking the script to be precise.
This suggests there could have been the fireplace scene from earlier in S4 on L2 (scenes moved between levels rather freely on S4) whereby Giles had to escape Mogdred by the TINY spell, and then perhaps have it uncast on the other side. Or v.v. - going small to get through the fireplace only to face Mogdred and having to work out to uncast it possibly to scare him away (not entirely convincing an idea though). This would leave the door monster scene and the final scene with the Cup.
Alternatively casting the TINY spell would parallel what happened with Malice on the winning team's quest. Maybe the Block and Tackle was moved from Level 2 to make the end of the season more dramatic, and actually an encounter with Mogdred parallel to that in team one's quest was the original plan.
I think it's finely balanced between those two probabilities.
It could be something else entirely though, probably not a hobgoblin given the locations we did see but possibly a scene that wasn't shown on the series. It seems to me that locations were a bit thin on the ground by Level 3 though in Series 4.
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Fair point my good man.
If "Christmas in summer" didn't get in the way we could've seen Giles bring it back. Could've given you guys a Christmas present at least just as a consolation for taking a dump in what I can only describe as a fun, and what could've been a much deserved victory.
Just a little amusing thought Brett. You know that shot when Treguard is saying farewell to the teams when they tend to fail and they wave goodbye before walking off. Did they not show your team because you flipped the rod instead of waving?? XD
I know it's unlikely but it did occur to me at the time
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Hi Fidjit,
I don't know whether one or two of the other team members made a rude gesture as has been since claimed, or whether we weren't shown 'just as the winter is closing in upon us' because the production team didn't have any suitably wintery effects and wanted to leave it to the viewer's imagination.
We recorded two endings, one for Christmas and another for export to countries such as Spain, to be shown when it wasn't Christmas.
Best wishes,
Brett
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