Knightmare urban myths
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I am curious as to what this guy was thinking of, as it clearly wasn't Knightmare! ("Did anyone ever see the new KnightMare quite a few years back ... There were a few episodes on a GameShow channel that just had adults on it." Apparently not a reference to the Geek Week episode, which he didn't know about, and which was only a one-off and not shown on TV. It can't have been the TimeGate trailer either.)
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I just tweeted the guy, asking if he was possibly thinking of another show, I'm waiting on a responce
Another personal myth of mine, and linking to a friend who believed this too, was that Hordriss betrayed Treguard in series 6 and helped him to release the Red Dragon. Before I rediscovered Knightmare, I always remembered one of my favourite moments to be when Treguard defeats the dragon, but my memory must have been mixed up because I always remembered Hordriss talking to Lord Fear in the pool right before the dragon was released. And my friend initially thought that Hordriss was all bad so she ended up assuming she was in league with Lord Fear too.
Obviously my memory got muddled and I somehow replaced the moment where Hordriss warns Treguard with the moment when Hordriss is demanding Lord Fear to release Sidriss. But hey, I was just a kid, my memories got mixed up a lot back then XD
UPDATE: I just got a reply: "I could've sworn there was an episode where they got guys from an old episode, who are now in their mid 30s on it." Does anyone have any idea about what he's referring to?
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I liked early Hordriss when ie was neither good or bad, he kinda became a good guy to replace Merlin.
Gameshow channel is probably challenge and the only thing i can think off could be Fort Boyard.. but that has more in common with Crystal Maze. Unless he saw some classic Crystal Maze they did have a KM style game one year.
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Myth: There was a US version of Knightmare called Helmet Castle Kids.
Origin: The Wikipedia entry on Knightmare. It specifies that Helmet Castle Kids ran from 20 September 1988 to 8 March 1990. This is replicated in other wikis.
Reality: Over to Tim Child.
The 1992 US Pilot - Lords of the Game
In 1993 we kept all the staff and cast on for two days at the end of series production and made a 30 minute pilot for the US market, entitled Lords of the Game.
All the cast were used except Hugo who was replaced by an American actor. Players were provided by the US Air base at Mildenhall in Suffolk.
The pilot was not successful, US production companies being terrified of Cromakey-based shows, because of the technical complexity.
Was it made in 1992 or 1993? From watching it at the Knightmare Convention we know it was 1992: it used characters and scenarios from Knightmare Series 6.
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Thanks for bringing that to my attention - while Wikipedia is an open encyclopedia for all, I feel quite protective about the Knightmare article as it was me who turned it from a small "stub" article to the bigger one you see today in May of 2005. With assistance from Brollachan (photos) and Drassil (copyediting/factual corrections) of this forum, as well as Tim Child himself who helped me via email!
The reference to 'Helmet Castle Kids' was added to the article on January 24th 2020, by a user's only edit to the website. I'm fairly sure the show doesn't exist at all and it's just someone having a laugh, so as of today I've reverted their edit and removed the reference.
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"I could've sworn there was an episode where they got guys from an old episode, who are now in their mid 30s on it." Does anyone have any idea about what he's referring to?
Maybe he's confusing memories of one of the promo clips for Timegate?
MYTH: The final quest in season 8, Team 7, was just eight minutes long, the shortest of all time.
REALITY: Poor ol' Aqash's team (S02 T06) had the shortest quest of all time at just shy of ten minutes. (And given the strong rumours of a fix to get them past the clue room, they were lucky to last that long.) The quest time for S08 T07 - Oliver's team - appears to have been miscounted originally back in the days of 'knightmare.clara.net' around 2000, as a re-check a few years later found that their adventure instead lasted about thirteen minutes before end-of-season intervened.
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MYTH: The final quest in season 8, Team 7, was just eight minutes long, the shortest of all time.
REALITY: Poor ol' Aqash's team (S02 T06) had the shortest quest of all time at just shy of ten minutes. (And given the strong rumours of a fix to get them past the clue room, they were lucky to last that long.) The quest time for S08 T07 - Oliver's team - appears to have been miscounted originally back in the days of 'knightmare.clara.net' around 2000, as a re-check a few years later found that their adventure instead lasted about thirteen minutes before end-of-season intervened.
I assumed that Akash et al had the shortest quest ever (altho it woz amazing how much entertainment they crammed into such a short time ) but according to this website, S2 T1 had the shortest quest ever.
S2 T1 were not a bad team, just a little unlucky, scoring 2/3 in the clue room and guessing wrongly on a 50/50 clue object choice, like several other early teams.
(S1 T1,2,5 and S3 T1 were also close contenders for shortest quest ever.)
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Okay, I've checked the two quests, and you're correct, although there's only half a minute in it. Curiously, were it not for a mistake Aqash's team were halfway through making before correcting, it would probably have been the other way.
Measuring from the instant the dungeoneer steps through the dungeon door, to the instant the terminal life-force clock slides onto the screen, I found the quest lengths were as follows; -
S02 T01's quest lasted 9m 41s.
S02 T06's quest lasted 10m 11s.
In the chamber before his death scene, the GCotC, had Aqash not started out going for the right hand exit before being reminded about his quest object, stopping and going left instead, his quest would probably have been the shortest of all time.
The final team in season 8 doesn't come close to being the shortest.
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Yes, as you say their quest could have been even shorter. They also had a rather pointless empty room first-up, which added time.
** Is this fact or urban myth?** Akash & co would have had an even shorter quest, as they originally scored 0/3 in the clue-room. However, the producers weren't able to depict Igneous devouring the dungeoneer, so the "TRUTH" spell scene with the troll was filmed afterwards to ensure they got at least 1/3 when they re-took the Igneous scene.
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That's a rumour. It's unsubstantiated, and I'm not sure anyone in the production team would remember, seeing as how it was so long ago. Maybe Akash's team know, but as to find them...
Anyway, my guess would be that this is true. My reasons for this are:
(i) Having a dungeoneer death as early as the first wall monster encounter wasn't ever intended to happen. (I'm fairly certain that a death animation could have been done, probably the wall monster saying something like, "FALSEHOOD! Now I feed on YOU!" and the life force suddenly appearing on screen in the depths of condition red). But this wouldn't have made for good television...
(ii) ...or even make the time and expense involved in starting an incredibly short quest worthwhile. The team had clearly passed the interview process, although quite how may be a mystery; they had earned their chance to be on Knightmare. Dying after five minutes is a very short time and doesn't make for any sort of excitement! It's hardly a quest at all!
(iii) Given the above two, it wasn't kosher for the production team to present the Watchers with a short, boring, lame-duck quest.
(iv) Lillith has already proven herself useful as a way of disposing dungeoneers who weren't going to finish level 1 (in most cases, by not taking the right item from the clue room), and Akash certainly hadn't taken it. Not getting any information from the wall monster didn't indicate that he should take the ice pack (although I would have - always take the unusual item!), and not doing so put the team in losing status.
(v) Adding a couple of rooms after the clue room itself made this feel like a more complete quest, and if the team were going to die anyway, let the Watchers think that, despite their bad start, they may have a chance.
(vi) Taking all the above into account, let's imagine that the team did, in fact, score zero during the wall monster encounter. This was so early on in the quest that it would have been easier, perhaps, to re-start the thing and insert the troll encounter in order to guarantee the team at least one truth. The troll encounter seems completely incongruous to me - particularly being so early on, as well; I'd expect encounters of this sort to take place later in Level 1 or Level 2 and certainly later than the Level 1 clue room - lending credence to the fact that this was inserted in at relatively short notice.
So I say that, given the evidence available, this rumour may indeed be true!
If it is true, then the selection of the troll may be called into question. Surely this early in Level 1, someone like Folly or Gretel might be more suited to giving out the spell. Their appearance this early in the Level probably wouldn't be as surprising, either. Heck, put the kitchen room in and have Mildread give them the spell after an admonishment from Treguard! Maybe it was easier to load the chasm room, or Guy Standeven was available and in costume ready to go... whatever the scenario, I think that it all lends credence to the rumour!
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My reasons for thinking the rumoured 'fix' is probably true are; -
Firstly, there's no Wheel Of Fate scene, the only quest in which it's missing in S2. It suggests to me that the 4-door chamber was put in subsequently to replace it, because they needed to add in an entrance to the troll scene, when the ledge cavern probably hadn't been on the Wheel originally.
Secondly, the key one for me, the effect of the TRUTH spell. Spells, like clue objects, are given out with a view to what is going to be needed later in the level i.e. there is almost always a specific situation scripted in later, and the spell will always have the necessary effect to resolve it. How could the crew possibly have known in advance that the team would not know the answer to any of the riddles in the clue room? If they didn't, and there wasn't some kind of engineering going on, it's got to be the luckiest coincidence in the series' history that such a generic spell was doled out to this particular team.
Thirdly, since when did the troll have any magic?
Fourth, wasn't the troll talked around incredibly easily, to convince him, not just to let Aqash go, but also to give him the spell? This has to be the most cheaply-earned spell ever, and it makes a nonsense of all other scenes with the troll, where objects or magic are required to get past him. All that faffing about with the invisibility talisman by team 12, when all they really had to do was tell the troll, "Don't eat me, I don't taste nice!!!!" and then he'd not only let them pass, he'd give them a 'thank you' spell too?
Fifth, a member of the first team in season 3 revealed in the early-2000s that they died on the snake-tongue bridge in the Serpent's Mouth Cavern, but were allowed to re-film it because the next team hadn't arrived yet. This could easily have been the same kind of situation, and Neil Payne's team may not have got to the studio as yet.
The whole thing reeks of contrivance. Nonetheless, the rumour has never been formally corroborated.
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And from all that, we go to...another Bore Monster. Dooreen's the name, and out of interest, where did the stuff about needing three riddles to get past originate? Treguard didn't mention it (at least I didn't hear them), and I've only ever heard it on Knightmare.com. They get three anyway, though...
Myth: In Series 4, the door monster on Level One (Dooris) needed one truth (i.e. correct answer to a question) in order to open, the Level Two door monster (Doorkis) needed two and the Level Three door monster (Dooreen) needed three.
Origin: Older version of this website; The Eye Shield; previous versions of Interactive Knightmare Lexicon entries.
Reality: Every dungeoneer who met Dooris gave her at least one truth, Doorkis at least two truths and Dooreen three truths. But we don't know how many truths were required: to my knowledge, it was never stated in any episode, nor in any interviews or contestant accounts. It may have been coincidence on each occasion.
Each door monster was seen asking three questions in every encounter - regardless of the number of truths he/she may or may not have needed - and unlike wall monsters of the earlier series, the only reward a door monster gave was to open.
If a door monster didn't receive any truths, presumably the dungeoneer would have been stuck there until life force drain ended the quest. I can only imagine how anti-climactic that would have been for us as watchers.
Myth: Dooreen, the Level Three door monster in Series 4, was definitely played by Zoe Loftin.
Origin: This website past and present; previous versions of Interactive Knightmare Lexicon entries.
Reality: Like most Series 4 characters, Dooreen was never credited in Knightmare's end credits. I'm not aware of any other official source crediting her.
Dooreen could just as easily have been played by Samantha Perkins - and I think she was, because:
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Dooreen's voice sounds more like Samantha Perkins as Malice pretending to be an old woman than any of Zoe's voices
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The mouths seem to match
I also think it's more plausible than Zoe playing two of the same type of character and Samantha playing none.
What do the rest of you think?
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The whole thing reeks of contrivance. Nonetheless, the rumour has never been formally corroborated.
First rule of politics: never believe anything unless it's been officially denied.
Myth: Dooreen, the Level Three door monster in Series 4, was definitely played by Zoe Loftin.
Origin: This website past and present; previous versions of Interactive Knightmare Lexicon entries.
Reality: Like most Series 4 characters, Dooreen was never credited in Knightmare's end credits. I'm not aware of any other official source crediting her.
Dooreen could just as easily have been played by Samantha Perkins - and I think she was, because:
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Dooreen's voice sounds more like Samantha Perkins as Malice pretending to be an old woman than any of Zoe's voices
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The mouths seem to match
I also think it's more plausible than Zoe playing two of the same type of character and Samantha playing none.
What do the rest of you think?
Your reasoning sounds good.
There is one other possibility. Could it have been Erin Geraghty?
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That did cross my mind, but personally I'm as certain as I can be that Dooreen was Samantha Perkins, because of the similarities in the voice and mouth that I mentioned.
While it's not clear why Erin Geraghty only appeared in the later Series 4 episodes, it may be because she wasn't available to appear in earlier episodes. That would rule her out of playing Dooreen, who could have been needed in any quest (and almost was in Quests 1 and 2).
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A post about the 'urban myths' in Watching Neighbours Twice a Day...: How ’90s TV (Almost) Prepared Me for Life by Josh Widdicombe, published in September.
Myth: 'It was actually quite a slow experience all round.'
Reality: Sometimes guiding and manoeuvring were slow. Other times, far from it (Corridor of Blades; hurry-ups like causeway timers and goblins).
Myth: A character might 'make [a team] choose between taking an extra life potion or poisoned apple'. Josh adds: 'It never felt like a particularly tough decision.'
Reality: Knightmare was, in Treguard's words, "no game of numerous lives". The closest thing I can think of to an extra life potion was the poison that Series 4 Quest 6 turned into a life force restorer with their OPPOSITE spell. The closest thing I can think of to a poisoned apple was Mildread's potentially poisoned pie in Series 2 Quest 10. I can't recall any character making such an obvious offer of a useful item versus a dangerous item, though Julius Scaramonger sometimes offered choices.
(Not Really A) Myth: 'Treguard ... often raised his voice to make it feel dramatic'.
Reality: It's a thing actors do.
Myth: Treguard 'would freeze the team on screen and say he would unfreeze them to carry on the adventure next week.'
Reality: I'm not aware of any explicit reference to "temporal disruption" being Treguard's doing - just that he would sometimes warn that it was imminent, as well as being unaffected by it.
(Not A) Myth: 'A rumour went round that a group of children from a neighbouring school had been on Knightmare and managed to complete the adventure (a rare achievement). I didn't see the episode so have no idea if this was true, but the main detail I remember from this gossip was that one of the children was named Dicken Hairs ... Perhaps this was just a myth in my school or perhaps it was the case'.
Reality: Except for the misspelling of Dickon Hares, completely true. This was Series 4 Quest 6 (1990). I include it because Josh has presented it as a possible myth, rather than taking the easy step of checking it. It's not clear why.
In response to this, someone tweeted Josh with the name of Dickon & co's school. In doing so, they presented another possible myth:
Myth: Dickon's team 'got to go on Big Breakfast and Motormouth, it was a big deal.'
Origin: @andyyyborn on Twitter
Reality: Neither of these things has ever been mentioned online before to my knowledge. There've been one or two memories on this forum of Motormouth having a Knightmare feature (search the forum for the word 'Motormouth' to find them). As for The Big Breakfast: it started in 1992, two years after Dickon's quest. If Dickon was on it, it may have been a coincidence. Or perhaps Andy was thinking of a different breakfast television programme. I would love there to be clips to confirm his memories.
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Thanks for bringing that to my attention - while Wikipedia is an open encyclopedia for all, I feel quite protective about the Knightmare article as it was me who turned it from a small "stub" article to the bigger one you see today in May of 2005. With assistance from Brollachan (photos) and Drassil (copyediting/factual corrections) of this forum, as well as Tim Child himself who helped me via email!
The reference to 'Helmet Castle Kids' was added to the article on January 24th 2020, by a user's only edit to the website. I'm fairly sure the show doesn't exist at all and it's just someone having a laugh, so as of today I've reverted their edit and removed the reference.
If you search on Twitter for "Helmet Castle Kids", you can find confessions from the culprit. He adds myth upon myth by claiming that he 'changed the name [from] Knightmare to HELMET CASTLE KIDS', whereas in fact he only misnamed the American remake.
Myth: The advisors in one team were shown the chromakey void without the dungeon room artwork and reacted as if this was deliberate.
Origin: A tweet by Russty_Russ in 2020 (and a further identical tweet by Russty_Russ in 2022). The tweet contains a clip of dungeoneer Maeve (Series 1 Team 2) entering the Level 1 clue room and being told she was "in a green room with a table on". Russty_Russ presents this clip, his 'fave moment', as the production crew having 'forgot[ten] to put the fancy computer effects on for the advisers that the tv viewers at home automatically see"'.
Here's an official ITV clip from the scene.
Reality: The scenario that Russty_Russ is positing would have involved a combined level of unawareness and incompetence on the part of production, post-production and advisers that is extremely implausible.
Even if the advisors had somehow been allowed to (unknowingly?) misinterpret the chromakey void as a dungeon room, Knightmare always used bluescreen and never greenscreen. That was pointed out to Russty_Russ in 2020 but didn't stop him sharing his myth a second time with his nearly 28,000 followers.
I can far more easily believe that the adviser, under pressure in the unusual and unfamiliar filming situation, simply said "green" when she meant to say "grey" (the colour of the walls).
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Myth: Some advisors deliberately sabotaged their own quests for amusement value.
Origin: Jamie Andrew's 2022 Knightmare article for Den of Geek:
'Sometimes all four kids had to wait around for an hour or so between 'rooms' while the production team re-dressed the set. Sometimes during these hiatuses a team would grow so bored and restless that upon resumption of their quest they'd intentionally kill the conquestant [sic] just for a laugh. This is why kids aren't allowed to vote or drive.'
Jamie has said on Twitter that he 'extrapolated [this] from an old Guardian interview with Hugo [Myatt] and Tim [Child].' That would be Ben Child's 2013 article for The Guardian in which Tim Child said:
'From the beginning, Knightmare was in crisis because production was terribly slow. The kids would be waiting an hour to film a scene that lasted a minute and a half. Inevitably, they lost enthusiasm and did silly things. Some teams would walk their dungeoneer off a precipice for no reason. Others would put a useless clue into their knapsack and later die in humiliating fashion because they did not have the right key to a particular door, or the right spell to dismiss a monster.'
Reality: There's no record anywhere of advisors deliberately killing off their dungeoneer. Unless any such accounts come to light, Tim's comment about contestants doing 'silly things' is best interpreted as referring to silly mistakes - "Simon, sidestep to your left" being the prime example - as opposed to purposely wrecking a highly sought-after TV experience which the team would have auditioned and travelled miles for.
Myth: The dungeoneer in the opening sequence of Knightmare Series 6-8 (and the 2013 YouTube Geek Week special, and later episodes of Spanish remake El Rescate Del Talismán) is the son of Knightmare creator Tim Child.
Origin: Illusion, creator and former admin of Knightmare.com:
2 questions that i have often wondered about
1.How did they attract dungeoneers for series 1?Later series could sell on the reputation of knightmare but this wasnt the case in 1987.
2.Who was the kid on series 6-8 opening credits and how was he recruited?
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Dunno, maybe they asked schools like Fun House did.
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I believe this was Tim Child's son.
Reality: So near yet so far. It was Tim Child's daughter. Source: Jennie Child herself, via a September 2022 LinkedIn post:
'I spent the summer holidays on set and even managed to become the dungeoneer in the starting credits at one point.'
How pleasing to still be getting new pieces of the Knightmare puzzle 35 years on.
(On reflection, you could argue that more than one person might have played the dungeoneer, but it does appear to be the same person throughout the sequence.)
Ben Child a.k.a. Tim's son played Garstang in the Geek Week episode.
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I was sure that I asked Tim who the dungeoneer was in the intro sequence at the convention and he replied with "just some model" or "just some actor" or something fairly dismissive.
Is it possible Jennie was referring to a teaser rather than the credit sequence itself?
I've just rewatched the opening sequence. I admit I had always thought it was a boy. But now I'm torn. There are some sequences where the gait and arm joint appears feminine. But there are others where it appears more masculine. The poor resolution of the sequence doesn't help.
Overall, I would still guess it's a boy. But I'm now less confident than I once was.
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