BUT spell
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Now a BUTT spell would have caused equal calamity surely...
I suspect it may have involved a certain degree of flatulence.
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its spelling would never be revealed
s4-t1-l3-status.JPG
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Ummmm....
Damn autocomplete!
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Having rewatched Series 4 Episode 3 on BritBox, I've been thinking about this again. So just before we become a cashless society, here's another ha'pennyworth from me.
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The baddy confronting the dungeoneer in a 'final encounter' on Level 3 is not strange - Morghanna, Malice, Aesandre and Lord Fear all did it;
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The baddy sending a floating weapon to menace the dungeoneer on Level 3 is not strange - Mogdred did it in Series 3 Quest 4 (Leo), Morghanna did it Series 3 Quest 6 (Ross);
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The baddy sending a floating weapon to menace the dungeoneer on Level 3 while staying yet doing nothing is strange - Morghanna dispatched an axe to make Ross "squirm" but didn't bother to hang around, whereas in Series 3 Quest 11 she killed Martin personally with a serious double trepanning. This implies that Series 4 Team 1's two spells were meant to deal separately with the two threats.
In other words, I agree with previous theories that BUT, a "quite humble" spell, was intended for the sword: to pause it or ward it off.
To address the other half of the puzzle, I'm going to speculate more wildly.
Why would Mogdred need a glorified letter opener to do his bidding anyway? Could it be that something prevents him from killing a dungoneer directly? Is he restricted by his status as Merlin's alter ego? (This could also explain why he tried to trick some dungeoneers into destroying themselves with questionable gift spells, and why he had to trap Tony (Series 2 Team 5) in a "playpen".)
A couple other things we do know:
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In the History of Knightmare on this website, Tim Child says that by Series 4, 'the Merlin/Mogdred scenario was exhausted (I had always found it annoyingly derivative)';
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David Rowe's Art of Knightmare book suggests that in Series 1 Quest 6, the OPPOSITE spell was intended to turn Mogdred into Merlin (as Canadanne has discussed in another topic). This is corroborated by information gleaned via David Rowe during the Knightmare Convention in 2014.
I'm suggesting, therefore, that to avoid wastage of the unused OPPOSITE idea, and to give a 'last hurrah' to the 'Merlin/Mogdred scenario', the "most powerful" TRANSFORMATION spell was intended to transform Mogdred into Merlin. He'd then have urged Helen on as he did for other dungeoneers he met on Level 3.
What I'm less sure about is how the team would have been given the time to cast this long spell. Mogdred just standing there and letting them do it could have been an anticlimax. Perhaps BUT would have sent the sword at Mogdred, distracting him for as long as the team needed, but could a "quite humble" spell have gone as far as to turn the sword against its master?
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After all his highly threatening remarks to Helen about ending her quest, personally I can't see anything moving Mogdred to be deliberately charitable, especially in the final stages. But we'll probably never know.
Having speculated on what the spells would have done, I've also been thinking about the scenario itself.
Other teams also had to choose between two spells, mostly in final encounters. The challenge was far from equal. Here are some comparisons.
Series 6 Team 5
Choice: between TRICK or TREAT from a spell scroll
Hints and prompts: Treguard told them to consider not just Lord Fear, nor just Lord Fear's sense of humour, but "Lord Fear's so-called sense of humour"
Outcome: won
Series 5 Team 4
Choice: whether to use FIRE or FREEZE against Aesandre; when to use the remaining spell
Hints and prompts: "The one defeats the sorceress Aesandre. The other releases the object of your quest" (Hordriss); "You must of course fight fire with fire" (Aesandre)
Outcome: won
Series 4 Team 6
Choice: whether to use FIRE or OPPOSITE against Malice; when to use the remaining spell
Hints and prompts: FIRE is "most powerful", OPPOSITE is "quite humble" (Hordriss); "You must eat or drink something now" (Treguard); "Now, you must eat or drink something now" (Treguard again, when the team tried to guide Dickon out); "And? Go on!" (Pickle, after the team cast OPPOSITE)
Outcome: won
Series 4 Team 1
Choice: whether to use TRANSFORMATION or BUT against Mogdred; when to use the remaining spell
Hints and prompts: TRANSFORMATION is "most powerful", BUT is "quite humble" (Hordriss); no other hints or prompts
Outcome: lost
It was therefore considerably easier for the later teams than for Helen's team.
In choosing to call one of S4 T1's spells BUT - not something descriptive or defensive, like PARRY, STOP, OFF or even NO - Tim Child deliberately made the puzzle more difficult than it could have been. Likewise, he could have asked Hugo via the earpiece to give a hint, such as encouraging them to act quickly and thereby discouraging them from using the longer spell.
He didn't. Why?
Maybe because the team had had plenty of hints and prompts to get as far as they did, such as Treguard reminding them how to respond to finding the bracelet on Level 3. Tim may have felt that the team had got (in Mogdred's words) "quite far enough", introducing watchers to substantial parts of a radically changed dungeon along the way, and that making it easy for them to win would have gone too far. He knew that his job was to entertain watchers.
On Level 3, Helen's team did have a chance. But not, it seems, a 'sporting chance'.
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Good observations as usual, Drassil. I would add that Mogdred arguably gave a further clue when he said, "You are too proud... you ride too high..." especially after Hordriss had described BUT as a humble spell.
But these subtleties of dialogue, it seemed to me, were not so important in Series 1-3 and so in Series 4 you wouldn't necessarily be expecting to have to analyse them and pick up on them; the format was changing somewhat. Also, deciphering important clues from entertaining filler in the heat of the moment is tricky enough sometimes. For example, I tried to write down Mellisandra's strange and confusing directions on our quest but it turned out not to be necessary.
Happy Easter, by the way,
Brett
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Drassil makes some great points above.
I agree that S4 T1 got a tough deal with these two spells. Tougher than the other teams mentioned. Perhaps because it was deemed undesirable for a series-opening team to win.
Faced with the chief antagonist, who was about to destroy Helen, it seemed logical to cast the spell which had been described as "most powerful" rather than the "most humble" spell. They hardly had a moment to realise that Rachel wouldn't have time to complete the very long "TRANSFORMATION" spell.
As others have stated, i assume that the "BUT" spell would have temporarily stopped Mogdred, causing him to adopt a stance of, "BUT, why should i kill you just yet? I enjoy watching fear, so i shall enjoy watching yours.... " (Rather like his threats to S2 T3.)
It seems highly unlikely that this scene with Mogdred was intended to be the final encounter.
The team had barely arrived in level 3. Compare the quests of Dickon and Giles (and even Alastair) and it would appear that Helen & co still had some way to go. Probably the transporter pad puzzle, surely the corridor of blades and Dooreen, before the final quest-object room.
Also, Treguard uses "DISMISS" which was still used for teams who fell early in level 3, (S3 T6, S5 T3) not "UNITE" which was saved for teams who fell at the final hurdle. (S3 T4, S3 T11)
The "TRANSFORMATION" spell might have been intended for use like Dickon's "OPPOSITE" spell, or to transform something into their quest object at the end.
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As others have stated, i assume that the "BUT" spell would have temporarily stopped Mogdred, causing him to adopt a stance of, "BUT, why should i kill you just yet? I enjoy watching fear, so i shall enjoy watching yours.... " (Rather like his threats to S2 T3.)
Perhaps it would have sent Mogdred into a loop of indecision ("But perhaps I should watch you squirm a while longer..." "But then again, why waste any more time?" "But on the other hand..."), and they could either cast the longer spell (if it was meant to be used on him) or simply escape the chamber while he carried on talking to himself.
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Just to add my thoughts to this discussion...
I've always believed that the casting of the BUT spell would turn Mogdred's magic sword against him, with the sword then heading in his direction instead of Helen's. Once he had been hit by his own weapon, Mogdred would have made a retreat, causing himself and the sword to disappear.
As for the TRANSFORMATION spell, already mentioned elsewhere in this thread but I agree that it would have been used to reverse the effects of a poison bottle later on in the level (as it eventually would do in Dickon's quest).
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As for the TRANSFORMATION spell, already mentioned elsewhere in this thread but I agree that it would have been used to reverse the effects of a poison bottle later on in the level (as it eventually would do in Dickon's quest).
Forgot to add that in Dickon's quest, the spell used to transform the poison into a life force restorer was as we all indeed know, OPPOSITE (for some reason I can't edit my above post, hence this addition).
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Thank you for the positive comments about my previous post in this thread.
Personally I struggle with the idea that BUT would have influenced Mogdred's actions directly. It's a lot to ask of a "quite humble" spell, against a foe who can be even more powerful than Merlin on Level 3 (according to Merlin himself in Quest 8**). It also doesn't account for the floating sword: newly designed and animated for Series 4, it must have had some intended purpose i.e. I believe the team would have had to do something against it.
It seems highly unlikely that this scene with Mogdred was intended to be the final encounter.
That's an interesting idea. After all, Malice met Dickon (Quest 6) twice, not counting the bridge.
On the other hand, Mogdred's words suggest to me that it is highly likely to have been Helen's final encounter with him: "There is no escape this time ... I shall now put an end to [your progress] in person. Prepare to receive the doom of Mogdred." Malice, by contrast, is far from threatening when she first confronts Dickon.
And when Malice does meet Dickon for the final encounter, his "most powerful" and "quite humble" spells are both needed, one after the other, in that room. I'm inclined to think that the same would have been true for Helen.
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After all his highly threatening remarks to Helen about ending her quest, **personally I can't see anything moving Mogdred to be deliberately charitable, **
The.... the spell....
The whole point of being under a spell is that you're.... under a spell. Your actions aren't deliberate.
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I agree with Ariadne's Layer on that: but exactly what Mogdred might have said is hard to predict. The thing is, there are so many things Tim could have written for Mogdred to say in providing a way out; we won't know unless he tells us, and I think we're unlikely to guess it.
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After all his highly threatening remarks to Helen about ending her quest, **personally I can't see anything moving Mogdred to be deliberately charitable, **
The.... the spell....
The whole point of being under a spell is that you're.... under a spell. Your actions aren't deliberate.
I'm aware that a few Knightmare spells enchanted characters and made them less adversarial, such as CREEP (Smirkenorff), ADORE (Fatilla) and PICKMEUP (the Knightmare VR gargoyle). How susceptible a more powerful, magical character such as Mogdred, Morghanna or Lord Fear could have been to such a spell is a matter of opinion.
Had I originally written -
After all his highly threatening remarks to Helen about ending her quest, personally I can't see anything moving Mogdred to be charitable, especially in the final stages. But we'll probably never know.
- without the word 'deliberately', my point would have been the same.
I used the word 'personally' to acknowledge that this is only how I see it and that others will see it differently.
It's not my intention to post things in a confusing way. If you found my comment unclear, you could have said, "I don't think what you've said makes sense" and I'd gladly have clarified. The fact that you chose instead to be so elaborate and emphatic - bold, and pauses for effect, and a negative emoji, and italics, and underlining - is very disappointing and came across as rude. I wouldn't want to see any member of this forum replied to like that.
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How susceptible a more powerful, magical character such as Mogdred, Morghanna or Lord Fear could have been to such a spell is a matter of opinion.
I think it was just a matter of the show's creators doing whatever they felt was good TV; I don't think they took a poll on viewer opinions before deciding if magical characters could and should be susceptible to certain spells. I mean, had another quest not been successful and we never saw what the "SPLASH" spell did, you could easily be saying here "I don't think a character like Lord Fear would be susceptible to such a silly sounding spell". But we know that he was.
You have no idea if Mogdred would or wouldn't be susceptible to any spell we didn't see used, and nor do I, and I highly doubt the makers were worried about things like "Oh we shouldn't do this, Mogdred is too powerful." But rather "What effects can we do with the budget we have?"
It's not my intention to post things in a confusing way. If you found my comment unclear, you could have said, "I don't think what you've said makes sense" and I'd gladly have clarified. The fact that you chose instead to be so elaborate and emphatic - bold, and pauses for effect, and a negative emoji, and italics, and underlining - is very disappointing and came across as rude. I wouldn't want to see any member of this forum replied to like that.
If you have a problem with the way I choose to use italics, underlines, and emoticons to convey expression, emphasis and emotion (which I have spent 20 odd years believing was their very function on forums like this where simple text can be hard to intepret, and none of which was intended to be negative), then I would appreciate if you'd send me a private message about it where it can be discussed civily rather than give me a public flogging. It's not my intention to be unclear. If you found my use of those things confusing, you could have said "I don't understand why you've worded your post like that" and I'd gladly have clarified. Simply deciding off the bat that I was being rude, is very disappointing, and as a member of this forum I did not like being replied to like that.
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BUT and TRANSFORMATION are one of the biggest outstanding questions across the Knightmare episodes.
For reasons that may become apparent in due course, I managed to get an answer to this quest.
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It was intended that the team cast BUT followed by TRANSFORMATION.
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The spell BUT was intended to make Mogdred stumble over his words, specifically the word 'but'.
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TRANSFORMATION would cause Mogdred to transform into Merlin, whereupon he would open a door for the team to escape the room.
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The room was not the final room, but it was close.
There remains some contention regarding the matter, so I need to have a think about how to best present things. Some things may be better left buried.
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