Being DISMISSed vs. "previous dungeoneers" as floating skulls
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I don't know if this has ever come up on this forum before, but something just occurred to me!
Every time a quest ends we see the dungeoneer plus their advisors in some empty valley. Treguard sees them off, sometimes with assurances that the dungeoneer's alive and well despite being killed in the dungeon, and we move onto the next team.
And yet, he twice described the floating skulls as previous dungeoneers, so if we're not assuming an inconsistency in Knightmare's lore, Treguard isn't telling us the whole truth about dungeoneers being ultimately unharmed by their death. Something of them is left behind, perhaps permanently.
This is a really unsettling thought and I like it!
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I actually have some headcanons about this... since the dungeoneers don't really die, it suggests they're inhabiting a temporary body during their visit to the Knightmare world, which is supported by the life force sprite. I think the skull ghosts are expired life force sprites from dead dungeoneers, which are left floating around in search of another body to attach themselves to - that's why they're attracted to dungeoneers and can harm them by trying to drain or eject their own life force sprite.
Interestingly, once the original 'skull' life force clock is replaced by the walking skeleton in Series 6 (which coincides with the introduction of a new knapsack design), the skull ghosts are never seen again. I like the idea that the new knapsack is related to the new and improved life force sprite that doesn't create floating skulls when it expires.
The knapsack changes again in Series 8, which is also when they're suddenly allowed to put clue objects inside it - perhaps it's a more advanced one that can distinguish between food and other items, and the new 'pie' life force clock is an indicator that the knapsack has recognised a food item.
I probably think about this stuff too much...
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since the dungeoneers don't really die, it suggests they're inhabiting a temporary body during their visit to the Knightmare world, which is supported by the life force sprite. I think the skull ghosts are expired life force sprites from dead dungeoneers, which are left floating around in search of another body to attach themselves to - that's why they're attracted to dungeoneers and can harm them by trying to drain or eject their own life force sprite.
Oh, I like this idea! I also imagine that would make dungeoneers quite unpopular with regular dungeon residents. We don't know whether or not the floating skulls can harm anyone other than dungeoneers but they're creepy and hard to ignore at the very least.
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We don't know whether or not the floating skulls can harm anyone other than dungeoneers but they're creepy and hard to ignore at the very least.
Hmm, yes... Hordriss says he despises them, Merlin also calls them "vile", and Elita rather aggressively shoos one away. I don't think anyone else shared a scene with one?
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Hmm, yes... Hordriss says he despises them, Merlin also calls them "vile", and Elita rather aggressively shoos one away. I don't think anyone else shared a scene with one?
Yeah, they themselves are unpopular but it doesn't seem like Hordriss or Merlin held their existence against the dungeoneers. Elita... if she knew they came from failed quests (assuming your headcannon is true) then she didn't mention it, and she seems the most likely to blame a current dungeoneer for their existence, fair or not.
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Well, I'm sure Hordriss and Merlin realise the dungeoneers can't do anything about it. Other characters might indeed have been less fair... if Treguard is right about the skull ghosts being "previous dungeoneers" in whatever sense, it does seem like a missed opportunity for Elita to complain about them!
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Hordriss says he despises them, Merlin also calls them "vile", and Elita rather aggressively shoos one away. I don't think anyone else shared a scene with one?
Two others come to mind: Grimwold (Quest 7 of Series 3); Eric aka the catacombite (Quest 11 of Series 3).
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Two others come to mind: Grimwold (Quest 7 of Series 3); Eric aka the catacombite (Quest 11 of Series 3).
Ah, yes! Grimwold seems too focused on murdering Kelly to even notice the skull, or isn't concerned about its presence. (Either that or he kills her in a rage because he blames dungeoneers for all these hauntings, and it doesn't occur to him that he's only creating another one!)
I'm not sure to what extent the catacombite is even capable of thought, but he'd probably consider them to be his cousins or something.
The one that intrigues me is the "superstitious" Behemoth earlier in the same episode. Can hauntings somehow harm them, even though they are "less than human" and possibly robotic? Was a skull ghost present when something bad happened, so now it associates them with danger? (By contrast, the Behemoth in James' quest doesn't react at all to a skull hovering in the side doorway. Again it may simply not have noticed it.)
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Another possibility is that "dungeoneers" include the warriors mentioned in the novels, whom the Gruagach lured to the Castle to kill them off for years before Treguard reclaimed it. They certainly weren't restored to life after dying in the Dungeon, as that would defeat the object of the Gruagach's plans i.e. to kill off England's bravest and most honourable warriors.
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Another possibility is that "dungeoneers" include the warriors mentioned in the novels, whom the Gruagach lured to the Castle to kill them off for years before Treguard reclaimed it. They certainly weren't restored to life after dying in the Dungeon, as that would defeat the object of the Gruagach's plans i.e. to kill off England's bravest and most honourable warriors.
Yeah, that was my initial theory, although I'm never quite sure if the word "dungeoneer" applies to those earlier knights, as there's a quote in TQ (which may or may not be considered canon) that suggests otherwise: "The object's usefulness lay in a side effect of its ability to transfer beings from alternate realities. This was the beginning of the 'dungeoneers'; humans like us (or at least most of us) here at Dunshelm, but with the added bonus that they could be sent into the dungeon without fear that they would be harmed, at least in the long term."
Plus the skulls aren't encountered until Series 3, so they don't seem as well established as things like catacombites, cavernwraiths etc. But I guess they must have been hiding somewhere for at least a couple of quest seasons anyway!
(I'm now also wondering about the two that emerge from a cauldron in the final quest of Series 3... was Mrs Grimwold boiling a couple of dead dungeoneers?!)
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I actually have some headcanons about this...
Pun intended?
I'm now also wondering about the two that emerge from a cauldron in the final quest of Series 3...
I like the idea of it being their jacuzzi where they unwind after a hard day's haunting.
Alternatively: in one of my fanfics, Mildread is imprisoned in her cauldron after Series 2, implying that one of those skull hauntings was her.
As for the other: the possibilities are plentiful. Festus's third head (as bitten off by Grimwold)?
Grimwold seems too focused on murdering Kelly to even notice the skull
Or perhaps that one was Festus's third head, hounding Grimwold in vengeance. Or maybe he bit it off to serve as his personal ghost pet. Cue a buddy fanfic...
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I like the idea of it being their jacuzzi where they unwind after a hard day's haunting.
That is unbelievably precious, especially for something that's essentially horror.
Alternatively: in one of my fanfics, Mildread is imprisoned in her cauldron after Series 2, implying that one of those skull hauntings was her.
As for the other: the possibilities are plentiful. Festus's third head (as bitten off by Grimwold)?
Mildread being a skull-ghost is a tantalising possibility, especially as I'm seeing all these headcannons and wondering if any had them for the blue and green skulls?
As far as Festus goes, I assume he'd have canine skulls, but the idea of a vicious hell-dog having human faces has that little bit of extra horror factor. Bring it on!
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I honestly don't remember Treguard ever saying they were past dungeoneers but if they were, I don't see it as an inconsistency. It's clearly stated from the beginning that the dungeon reality is different to our own, so they're obviously just remnants of whatever life force remained when the dungeoneer was killed.
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Also in the Fire Cave; -
"Ah, it seems one of your predecessors has arrived before you and 'decided to stay'." - season 3, episode 13, about 22m 50s. There's even a pile of bones and the season 1 helmet of justice lying on the pathway to underline that it's a dead dungeoneer.
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How dark!
And as the OP said, a little inconsistent with what we're told/shown happens to dungeoneers. But not REALLY because it can simply be explained away as a different reality.
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