The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs
-
Y'all know I'm going to finger wag anyway, so I won't bother. The one important point that we haven't talked about but that RedMage rightly addresses is the fact that we're not talking about the entire eight series on just one or two DVDs. As far as I know, that's just in the realms of impossibility. The petition statement should be changed to reflect the fact we know we're not thinking in such impossible terms.
It does highlight the need for extras and such to sell each series DVD(s). As I've mentioned elsewhere, I've given this a good deal of thought. However, the main thing for now is to convince Granada of the viability of the project. I do think that depends partly on them thinking there is a suitably untapped market.
-
This would be speculating big style - but taking a cost of say £15 per series - that might amount to £120 in total
Oh, I imagine if it's a double DVD set it'll cost slightly more. However I strongly doubt they'd release all 8 series simultaneously. Say they released one a month. That'd change it from being a 120 quid outlay into 15-20 pounds (or whatever) per month, which is much more palatable. Anyone who recorded KM on vhs or tape-traded for it will be keen to upgrade their copies, I'm sure - I don't think it'll be a case of 'this is good enough for me'. Especially since Tim Child suggested that there was a lot of bonus material that could be included on the DVDs.
It is possible for people to become die-hard fans through watching the show, also - it's not an exclusive elite of people who saw it the first time round, it's a growing number of people from early teens up through to mid-twenties. That's some market.
I do agree that the AVIs are a great idea for those who don't have Challenge, and agree that Sky TV is a restriction - and also see how it will bring in new watchers and fans that haven't seen it
so if you agree that then why say:
- but would think the best compromise would be to post only a few episodes, and encourage something of an.. anticipation for the rest of the series should the official release ever come about
Now, if there were a guaranteed DVD release coming up, then I might agree with you. But there isn't, as yet, any such thing. There's no anticipation there at all.
And I'm not scorning you, I just don't think you're right
This topic has been somewhat covered and recovered in other threads already, so we perhaps ought to be using those threads rather than creating new ones.
-
However I strongly doubt they'd release all 8 series simultaneously. Say they released one a month. much more palatable. [...] Especially since Tim Child suggested that there was a lot of bonus material that could be included on the DVDs.
That's definitely how I see it. The extras might need a little work too, which would limit the speed of release. The need to release each series separately (or at most a few at a time) would at least mean that they could be given a "feel" appropriate to that particular series, and extras could be a little more specific.
-
It's completely cool what you say in terms of AVI postings and I agree totally. These AVIs may pose a threat to offical releases.
The only series being posted (by myself at least) is series 4 - no more will be done. After the series has finished on Challenge, the downloads will be removed and be replaced by various screen shots from the series.
The DVD campaign should be stepped up a few gears by perhaps getting a little more aggressive with tactics.
Pricingwise of the DVD set? I don't think it will be an issue to most!
-
Ok...I may as well make my thoughts on this quite clear.
Regardless of DVD releases, which we may or may not have, this practice is illegal. That is my biggest worry about this whole business, and not only that, it is discussed freely on the forums, which could imediately get the people concerned into trouble. I would imagine that many of you understand the problems with the other KM pirating problem that came to light two months ago, and I feel due to the same reasons discretion is needed here.
Having free Knightmare episodes of Knightmare available online is no doubt good for the community who do not have Sky Television, but as for the reasons I just mentioned, I feel we all need to seriously keep a lid on it.
And Leggy....The idea of getting rid as soon as S4 is over on Challenge? is a good idea, having ever-lasting remembrance of them on your site would not be wise imo.
There, that is my two pennies worth I think....
-
right, from the top....Thank you redmage. just keep your eye on the "knightmare on DVD" topic in "bring back knightmare" forum and i'll keep progress updated. also any request for help will be put there. anything is gratefully recieved
pricing isn't really an issue yet but I am well aware that 8 series onto one dvd is silly impossibity. However, with a double sided DVD 1 series may be squashed onto one DVD. i do prefer single sided on the whole (im a cover art whore ) plus as people rightly said space for any generous extras with 2 dvd's per series.
GG, I'll do my best to make it clear we understand this impossibility in the pet.stat (i will either do this t=2moro afty coz i have exams in the morn or...go back on what i said like yest and do it now ) however plz do go and check this out as illusion improved on my original and the more corrections we make the better the statement will be (im no english student )
Dan, i as one without challenge fully LOVE these online eps but I will not request any anymore. im afraid DVD's are too important to risk. leggy, good man...you've done me a sterling service...i just hope my efforts please peeps as mcuh
Meph...the most interesting quests! NEVER! that is what i REAL am trying to keep away from. KIS KAR! (BTW: im sure you weren't implying you were in favour of such a thing im just "kiskaring" the idea not you for raising the issue)
kieren, always caring hugs keiren
-
Dan, i as one without challenge fully LOVE these online eps but I will not request any anymore. im afraid DVD's are too important to risk.
I am also without challenge tv - I had it whilst series 3 was being shown, but due to messups over dates for moving house I no longer have cable tv (and can't get it again without signing up for a 12 month period which I don't want)...
I can see the big picture and the concerns that you and others have over uploading other series and I agree with you that this shouldn't be done (and Leggy's already said he's only doing series 4). The problem is that, since there is no official release and screenings of the series (since Sci-Fi stopped broadcasting) are so far apart and so unsure, people don't know if this is going to be perhaps their last chance to see the episodes.
Part of the reason why I don't consider leggy's uploading of series 4 to be detrimental is because it's no different to me going round to a friend's house and watching it there. In fact, I have a friend who is recording the challenge broadcasts of series 4 for me. Keeping anything on video for longer than a certain period of time (2 or 3 weeks, I think? not sure) is technically a criminal offense. Is there a difference?
-
not particuly except that on the internet its really easyily available at all hours. so yeah...quite different in fact.
anyway. what is kept V.quiet will not be noticed so hush hush now and go about your merry buisness sir. as to the DVD's they are getting more promising all the time but things like this could balls it all up. doubtless there will be other chances and other ways. buck up sunny jim
-
not particuly except that on the internet its really easyily available at all hours. so yeah...quite different in fact.
That wasn't the point at all, and you know it.
If it were being shown on, for example, ITV again, then everybody here would be able to watch it and record it themselves and do what they like. But it's not - it's being shown on a minority channel that not everybody has access to. We could all go round our friend's house to watch it, or ask them if they'd video it for us... or we could download the episode. I'm playing devil's advocate here and suggesting that there's actually very little difference in the end result here.
And you can keep saying 'this could well spoil a DVD release' all you like, and I can keep saying "I don't think it will" all I like - I think we've both covered our respective points there
-
ok, i understand what you're saying however you seem to fail to understand that what your saying is total BULL.
sorry, im tired and hae exams 2moro, please forgive my impatience...basicly.
on tv only: its being shown legaly, the people who get access may tape but that's been done for ages and it's pretty much excepted. Also, it's only on tv every so often so the chance for piracy is diminished. i mean seriously, if you're gonna use this as an excuse for having knightmare online you come dangerously close to banning all TV in fear of video tapes
on WWW: not legal full stop. it's available ALL THE TIME to anybody with access and spread faster, easier, cheaper...etc. lets not mention breach of copyright.
and now im sure you'll throw videos being breach of copyright in my face however, whos gonna prove what you've got on VHS? noone, they can't be bothered. when something is blaitently online there isnt much hiding it
oh jeez, rant over...i pass the gauntlet over to GG
-
It's a very nasty chicken-and-egg situation.
G.M. aren't doing a release yet so people turn to downloads, which diminish the chances of G.M. doing a release, so people turn to downloads etc.
This vicious circle must be broken if we want anything to happen. If all access to Km programmes, with the exception of the Challenge broadcasts, is stopped and we inform G.M. of that, they will see how seriously we take the matter - and that may just clinch it for us.
In terms of DVD extras, series 1 will fit onto one disc. Another whole disc can therefore be crammed with extras. Series 2-7 will require two discs each with fairly little room free for extras (I'm assuming single-sided, 4-hour discs). Series 8 will require two discs, too, but the second will have a lot of free space.
So, I'd imagine the vast majority of extras will exist on the series 1 and series 8 releases. Series 1 being laden with extras would be an advantage in that it would encourage more sales and therefore make a good commercial footing for the release of more series (assuming they release them over a period of time, as Dan suggests, which I think will be the case - series 1 only would be a good way to test the water).
-
ok, i understand what you're saying however you seem to fail to understand that what your saying is total BULL.
sorry, im tired and hae exams 2moro, please forgive my impatience...basicly.
Then maybe you should've saved replying until you were feeling in a better mood? I appreciate that you may be under a bucketload of stress at the moment, but I don't think that really gives you the right to snap at me, especially when you know full well that's what you're doing and you try and excuse it in the very next sentence
on tv only: its being shown legaly, the people who get access may tape but that's been done for ages and it's pretty much excepted.
...which, as you say I'll point out futher down, doesn't mean it isn't illegal.
Also, it's only on tv every so often so the chance for piracy is diminished.
that's WHY people are doing there best to see it now - they don't know if it's going to be on in the future!
i mean seriously, if you're gonna use this as an excuse for having knightmare online you come dangerously close to banning all TV in fear of video tapes
I'm not using it as an excuse. I was, as I said, playing devil's advocate, asking you to tell me how it was any different whatsoever. Your analogy is flawed, anyway - it would be closer to banning videos from being able to record.
on WWW: not legal full stop. it's available ALL THE TIME to anybody with access and spread faster, easier, cheaper...etc. lets not mention breach of copyright.
You can't use breach of copyright as an excuse because the SAME reason also applies to videos. It doesn't matter if it's gone on for ages and is generally accepted - it's STILL illegal.
and now im sure you'll throw videos being breach of copyright in my face however
Damn right - you can't ignore a point just because it inconveniently gets in the way of your argument
whos gonna prove what you've got on VHS? noone, they can't be bothered. when something is blaitently online there isnt much hiding it
Who's going to prove what you've got on your computer? I don't think GM would be any more bothered that I had series 4 in avi form on my computer than if I had videotaped it.
Making it available online is a different issue (supply rather than possession) but still not one that I think is going to get in the way of any DVD release because as has already been said it's going to be taken down after Challenge have stopped showing the series anyway. It shows the demand for such a release, it doesn't diminish it.
I like your posts, Pickle, but if you're only going to reply to tell me I'm talking BS could you save yourself the trouble? This is a discussion forum - I'm not trying to deliberately wind you up (so I apologise if I am), but anything you say here is open to debate, so don't get upset when people DO debate it
Good luck with your exams...
-
Firstly, please let's all be polite.
I'm glad Malefact used the same logic I've been using on another thread. It is a chicken and egg situation. And let's remember one of the issues isn't so much whether those people who download/buy illegally copied tapes would buy a DVD, but whether Granada believe they would. And one can definitely see why they might be sceptical.
I can see both sides to this. My own suggestion would be the following. Please be kind enough to read the whole thing before getting infuriated. And please also read between the lines.
-
Stop the uploads. It's important that we can confidently say to GM that illegal trading/uploading of all kinds has ceased. If such services are not advertised publicly on this forum, we can confidently say that. If people ask where they can get full episodes or anything else and you have something on your website that might satiate their KM hunger, tell them. But none of us have KM AVIs up, right?
-
We do the petition. If we do it with PetitionPetition, we can include a fixed period to collect signatures. After those months, we send it to Granada. We tell them we've collected all these signatures in just a few months. We make the most cogent arguments we can. We investigate possibilities and address potential problems. We tell them that all illegal trading and such is, as far as we can sensibly ascertain, stopped.
-
Then we see what they say. If they're enthusiastic in any real degree, we can pursue it from there. If they were flatly unenthusiastic or uncooperative, I could quite understand why some people might want to take recourse to uploaded episode copies. There's nothing to stop anyone taping the episodes off Challenge?. I, of course, would still frown upon the illegality of all this uploading/downloading, but I would understand it, and given that we'd tried so hard to get an official release, wouldn't wag fingers like I do now.
Just my suggestion, remember. I'm not any authority. I'm not pushing anyone to do anything with which they're uncomfortable.
-
-
The main reason that there are episodes being uploaded on to the internet is for those poor and unfortunate people who do not have access to Challenge.
I myself have access to challenge, and could understand what it must be for people who can't watch the episodes.
Leggyman1210 is doing a great job, we must appreciate that. He is not doing it for himself!!! I hope he continues to upload the rest of this series and series 5 if it is ever broadcast.
This whole issue of uploading/downloading is not out of control. If sites flung up all over the internet with Knightmare downloads then people whould need to start debating the future of Knightmare on DVD.
LEGGYMAN KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.
-
Hey up everyone. I know this is long.. so it'll hold two or three posts maybe.
Since I started all this mayhem of ranting and raving, I thought I'd sit back and see how general reaction went.
A lot of things to respond to:
Dan: mate.. a fair few pointers.
This topic has been somewhat covered and recovered in other threads already, so we perhaps ought to be using those threads rather than creating new ones.
Maybe - but there's only one way to headline a specific thought area, and that's creating a new topic. Adding to other threads doesn't always guarantee that if you've spent good time and effort writing something carefully, that it'll be read and viewed with the same interest as a new topic dedicated to it. Besides, the number of reads and replies so far has indicated to me that the choice was worth it.
You also wonder why I consider the positives of AVis and then suggest a compromise of posting only a few? The simple answer, sir, is that: 1. illegal; 2. one doesn't have to see a whole series of 16 to grow to love Knightmare.. Kieran's brilliant thoughts - just show Simon's quest - then everyone would be hooked on team stupidity ;D . I only suggested limitations in the progession of my argument thinking purely of G.M's perspective - they're the ones we've got to please first, not the fans and general public.
Secondly:
It shows the demand for such a release, it doesn't diminish it
Maybe so, sir.. but that is not an argument we're going to run to GM with, is it!? 'By the way, guys, to show the extent of demand, we posted a series' worth of illegal AVIs...and the huge download numbers might suggest that there are a lot of fans who might like to watch KM should it be released in saleable format.'
I'd still maintain that not everybody will be up for buying - and the AVIs will satisfy a lot of KM needs. It's all about consumer surpluses (any economists, out there). [Will get onto pricing and format ideas later].
Thirdly:
I don't think GM would be any more bothered that I had series 4 in avi form on my computer than if I had videotaped it.
Keeping anything on video for longer than a certain period of time (2 or 3 weeks, I think? not sure) is technically a criminal offense. Is there a difference?
Pointer one, sir: Firstly, GM might not be worried about individuals having the files - they may be worried, however, about the ever-more-significant group that have them. And let's remember, sir - you are not the one with head in the noose and taking the risk of posting them - that will likely be the reason why you're not so bothered about it. I could be wrong, but it appears that way quite clearly to me.
Pointer two: Pickle had, in my view, the valid point: A VHS tape is becoming accepted practice, because there are far more limiations to its broadcasting - friends, family, even a school could watch it - but the internet brands something available around the world at any time: the difference could not be larger in my eyes. And let's not blame Pickle for having the commitment to argue well into the night before A-Level exams. In fact, I'd say that when the emotions are running high, one might get across the best points. Nevertheless, thanks for putting across the viewer's view.
-
Pickle: Good show, sir. I will keep a very close eye on the BBK scene, and would love to be part of it. Thanks for your interest in what's been said here
I have to follow the great wisdom of Malefact and G.G. - you guys have held the wisdom forward I'd hoped to hear... it's about convincing GM we are in the best position ever to begin releasing KM. By stopping the AVI posts (Dan, and others), we are beginning to enter that frame of belief that something will be released (you guys admit that you like the AVis because nothing is definite - give it every chance to happen - allow NO room for ambiguity.. because GM will forever hunt it, it seems!) We only add extra responsibility and pressure on GM in a positive way if we show ourselves prepared to make 'the sacrifice' of illegal posting and other illegal goings-on.
Leggy: you are the forgetten man, here. Let me thank you for a smashing repsonse. If you let me know you've read this, and I might edit it out - you are doing all fans an immense and tremendous favour, and we think loads of you for it - and none of this is against you - just the argument of how to concoct a release. You have a sensible suggestion about running to the end and then getting rid. Please bear in mind, though.. every day and every new post has its added risks to you. I hope I speak for all of us, in that we'd rather not see any of it than have you get into any trouble - and after recent problems on e-Bay and the such, one can't be too careful.
As for the pricing and everything I proposed.. well - £15 was going to be a minimum always - the average new film release costs well more. I'd hope it didn't price a lot of people out of the market.. those who weren't die-hard fans.. but would like to reminisce their memories of the show, and would be prepared to at reasonable pricing. Yes - I didn't originally mean to portray the thought that I'd expect them all released together.. oh no.
I could envision GM releasing them on a 3 month basis or even longer - to scrutinise the sales figures. Yes, it would be easier on the pocket that way.. and I'd like them released 2/3 at a time if possible. Firstly, because that would only mean 3/4 batches of release, rather than 8 - meaning any alarmingly low sales figures would affect less future series releases at a time. I liked the ideas of series 1 and 8 holding the majority of extras.. and this would be most fitting: the first series covering I'd imagine the thoughts behind the game and the creation, 8 covering end of KM interviews.. maybe even fan interviews (!!) - and reviews on future projects) - a lot to go on. It also means that S1 would likely get a flying start, and S8, regarded as many fans as relatively disappointing, would attract sales by it's extras.
It's hypothetical.. but what I'd hate to happen, was to see S3 or S4 sales be low. While we could blame the probability of Challenge? tv broadcasts on S3 definitely, we can't have the finger pointed at the fans if S4 didn't take off, for whatever reason. As I said before, let not ambiguity tarnish all our years of good work.
I'd like to work on G.G.'s last comment too. We have not yet, I believe, seen G.M's true intentions where KM is concerned. Mr Child himself stated that they were actually interested in a release. It appears that they are very hesitant and sceptical to us, and that's why illegalities go on. Believe it or not, I do understand. However, I think now that the VHS situation has been knocked on the head - G.M. will begin to take us seriously - I'd like to see it as a whole new ball game and whole new sets of 'negotiations' really. You can't blame any company for thinking about profits and good business sense - and let's face it guys, if we want this to happen as much as we say we do, we should be bending over backwards to help out - and that means reallyknuckling down and keeping a tight, firm lid on the piracy front. That, I think, and the biggest ever BBK petitions we will release, will be the biggest indication to G.M. to date that we are serious. I'm not going to comment on the 'none wagging fingers if G.M. don't show willing' idea - because I think we all should have some damn belief it's going to happen and be released. If we don't have the belief.. all of us, how can G.M. ever have belief in us to keep our side of the bargain and pay the bucks to see te best show ever made??
I leave all these thoughts with you guys. Again, thanks for your dedicated reading time. Regards, KaM
-
Leggy: you are the forgetten man, here. Let me thank you for a smashing repsonse. If you let me know you've read this, and I might edit it out - you are doing all fans an immense and tremendous favour, and we think loads of you for it - and none of this is against you - just the argument of how to concoct a release. You have a sensible suggestion about running to the end and then getting rid. Please bear in mind, though.. every day and every new post has its added risks to you. I hope I speak for all of us, in that we'd rather not see any of it than have you get into any trouble - and after recent problems on e-Bay and the such, one can't be too careful.
To be honest, I didn't think such a mass array of discussion would of came from providing "second chance" viewings of episodes! I nearly did reach the point of pulling the plug on the whole operation - not because of the effort involved, but the danger of it cause any negative consequences.
I don't know anything what happened with EBay and the tape trading goings-on, but I guess it injected a bit of fear in to the jepordising of official releases!
Series 4 only runs for about another week and the episodes will continue to be posted, and as confirmed, they will be removed a few days after, and no future episodes from other series will be posted.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login