Those that were denied...
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I don't remember the series 2 team right now, but for the other two:
Giles' team should certainly have one. They seemed to have difficulty after difficulty thrown at them at the end in order to conveniently kill them off, but overcame them. They provided one of the few bits of entertainment in a dull series. Surely a bit of editing to the overall series would've enabled them to fit a win in?
Sophia's team were very entertaining, and deserve a massive cheer for answering back to Elita, but we've had other teams fail on a single Level 3 question, and although it was pretty harsh (and rare by then) that's the dungeon for you.
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This is one of those discussions that I guess people keep coming back to. Here's my thoughts:
Series 1 - tough to say, since most of the teams made "series 1 mistakes", that is to say mistakes that occurred through natural unfamiliarity with the format. Of course, James' fatal sidestep in series 3 comes under this category but by that point in the show was just sheer stupidity!
Series 2 - yes, Jamie was treated unfairly, no question. Especially compared to the hints that Neil got (does anyone else think that some of that team were dyslexic, and that's why they got the hints?).
Series 3 - Leo's riddle was a stinker, and Simon's amulet didn't have a "tracker facility" - even a little shadow on the floor would have helped. Scott's jump was indeed a good one, and it always threw me that they suddenly died. Cliff, there's arguments for and against there. Ross was unlucky too, that cliff path was tough to judge.
Series 4 - Alistair was unlucky getting the CoB like that, they were really on the ball for the whole of their quest (they didn't get a single riddle wrong). The backwards riddles that Vicky (or was it Nicky?) faced were confusing, that was very unfair, and Jeremy was a little hard done by too. Giles - absolutely was treated unfairly. Those long-winded spyglass sequences were the killer. They should have done what they did in series 1 and edit things a bit.
Series 5 - Sarah was hard done by, they were a very capable team, and they did eventually give Elita that gem. Alex's "slowness" on the causeway was a debatable issue, which I guess is why they put a visible clock there next season. Christopher needed three objects from one clue room to successfully complete level 2, so he was very unfairly treated indeed.
Series 6 - Matt's causeway death has always rankled with me, because it doesn't actually look like he put a foot wrong on it. And yes, Sofia didn't even get a chance to fail on the Great Causeway. Btw - Ben on that same causeway, the advisors used logic to work out the sequence.
Series 7 - Ben and the scattered spell was very unfair, considering the ease of the clues by this point in the series, the need to use that darkness powder or whatever it was, was not at all obvious. Usually, even in the first series, it's obvious what needs to be done, the question is do they have the means?
Series 8 - Daniel's CoB experience was indeed unfair. Also, Michael is another one that can be argued both ways.
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Not compiling my list as of yet, but the But death was a fair one in my view - That they should cast it was quite clearly indicated, albeit somewhat crypticly - Merlin told them it was a humble spell, followed by Mordread going on about them being humble before him or something like that.
Goodness knows what it would have done, however.
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Series 4 - Alistair was unlucky getting the CoB like that, they were really on the ball for the whole of their quest (they didn't get a single riddle wrong). The backwards riddles that Vicky (or was it Nicky?) faced were confusing, that was very unfair, and Jeremy was a little hard done by too. Giles - absolutely was treated unfairly. Those long-winded spyglass sequences were the killer. They should have done what they did in series 1 and edit things a bit.
Just noticed I made an error there - for spyglass, read eye-shield, as I'm sure you'd already figured out anyway.
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That's the first Knightmare episode that I have on video. They had quite a while to cast the spell, though I don't know what the result would have been if they'd decided to cast it earlier.
GG's #1: That's the one I meant.
I really renjoyed this quest ok series 4 was dubbed too easy and slow but the face off with good old M was very well played, just a shame thids season the ooh nasties were cancelled.
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When I watched it as a kid, the only one that struck me as unfair was along the lines of team gets object, later comes across situation where one of the female neutral charactera needs the object, the team asks what she will give them in return, the character says that they will give them nothing, team frees the character from her situation anyway. Team dies several rooms later due to the lack of a spell she would have given them and Tregard admonishes them for not driving a harder bargain. I may have missed some subtlety, as I was a kid at the time and I only had one chance to see it, but that one seemed unfair to me. Even if they'd just helped out without asking for anything, that would be what a dungeoneer should do, and I would consider the loss unfair. However, they did ask for a reward, were rebuffed and lost because they were not forceful enough. Anybody know which episode that was, so I could look at it again?
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When I watched it as a kid, the only one that struck me as unfair was along the lines of team gets object, later comes across situation where one of the female neutral charactera needs the object, the team asks what she will give them in return, the character says that they will give them nothing, team frees the character from her situation anyway. Team dies several rooms later due to the lack of a spell she would have given them and Tregard admonishes them for not driving a harder bargain. I may have missed some subtlety, as I was a kid at the time and I only had one chance to see it, but that one seemed unfair to me. Even if they'd just helped out without asking for anything, that would be what a dungeoneer should do, and I would consider the loss unfair. However, they did ask for a reward, were rebuffed and lost because they were not forceful enough. Anybody know which episode that was, so I could look at it again?
I think you mean Nathan and his team from series 8. The problem was the team didn't even ask for anything in return plus they were in level 3 so no excuses. I think it was a schoolboy error in my opinion and if Treguard jumped in at the time and advised the team to ask for something back in return, it would have been unfair. The team should have known from previous quests and series that you don't get something for nothing. I think the team got what they deserved in the end.
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I would disagree with that actually. After telling Nathan what he had to do, Maldame dismissed him and I don't think it was unwise of the team to follow this instruction. She'd already made it clear that she was not someone to be messed with.
Maybe they should have asked for something out of her, but under the circumstances I don't blame them too heavily for not doing so and I still think this was the best team of the series.
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I'm with Ross on this one. There was NO indication that the team needed to do anything differently (there would normally be some sort of prompt if they were meant to), and no clear opportunity for them to ask for a reward. And I'm not convinced they actually did mess up; it would be very easy for Treguard & Majida's conversation to have been filmed and inserted later as a false explanation for what went wrong. I don't believe they needed some special magic to get through the fireball room safely - their only mistake was apparently a careless sidestep.
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In other quests though you often see teams asking what would they get back in return if they had to give a item to someone or to give a warning. Nathan and his team failed to do this. The team shouldn't have needed an indication whether to ask Maldame something in return. They were helping out so should have thought to ask a favour in return.
As for Treguard and Majida's conversation, I find it hard to believe it would have been filmed and inserted as a false explanation. That wouldn't make sense to me. I thought it tied in with what happened.
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I feel with this team as great as they were they could have tackled that fire ballroom without magic i think Treguard always felt like he had to come up with something after deaths , hence suggesting maldamae should have given them something.
He did this with team 4 and 5 as well
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I feel with this team as great as they were they could have tackled that fire ballroom without magic i think Treguard always felt like he had to come up with something after deaths , hence suggesting maldamae should have given them something.
He did this with team 4 and 5 as well
Not long after the scene with Maldame and Nathan, Treguard and Majida did talk about how generous they were to help Maldame without asking for something in return. On this occasion the producers might have felt as a one off, in order to tackle the fireball room, magic must be used.
It was the same with a team from series 4. On 1 occasion the team needed magic to pass the block and tackle room but they didn't have any and unfortunately perished. Other occasions magic wasn't required.
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It was the same with a team from series 4. On 1 occasion the team needed magic to pass the block and tackle room but they didn't have any and unfortunately perished. Other occasions magic wasn't required.
Yeah, and that's another example that reeks of being an invented explanation after the fact, because surely the spell was meant for Ariadne rather than the Block & Tackle...
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Some of the details are different from my hazy memory, but this is surely the one I'm thinking of, thanks. I can't actually find any non-copywrited clips on youtube so I can't check it out myself, but based on the description it still sounds unfair to me. Dungeoneers are supposed to be noble, and if someone can't offer you something concrete in return you help them anyway on the basis your generosity will bear fruit later (maybe Maldane comes and distracts Lord Feare right as he's about to vaporise you, enabling you to escape) An alternative conversation and death that I wouldn't consider unfair:
(team needs to free Malderne, if they do she'll save them later but the character "Malderne" doesn't know that now so cannot bargain with that knowledge)
"Please free me"
"What will you give us"
"nothing"
"Really, nothing, then why should we help you?"
"I thought Dungeoneers were supposed to be noble. Begone, I'll find someone else!"
"OK we'll help you"
"Bah, too late, leave!"
Ending in death at the end even if the team recants. Tregaurd telling them off for being too mercenary. Requiring a team to ask twice to get a reward is not right in my opinion.
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It was the same with a team from series 4. On 1 occasion the team needed magic to pass the block and tackle room but they didn't have any and unfortunately perished. Other occasions magic wasn't required.
Yeah, and that's another example that reeks of being an invented explanation after the fact, because surely the spell was meant for Ariadne rather than the Block & Tackle...
Another 2 examples was Sarah's team from series 5 when Elita refused to help her and perished on the corridor of blades. Also Daniel's team from series 8 when he didn't have a sight spell and again perished in the corridor of blades.
I think maybe the teams could have conquered the corridor of blades unaided but it seems strange that without the help they perished so it would appear they needed the help or a spell.
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Just so we're all on the same page, this is what happened in Nathan's quest:
Maldame was on a balcony in Linghorm. Treguard warned them to be cautious as she didn't seem to like anyone: "She's very powerful, very dangerous and very unpredictable." She complained about Nathan's lack of respect because he hadn't kneeled in front of her, and also stated that when she was his age, she didn't require help or handouts from anyone else. She then observed that his quest would take him to Marblehead.
Maldame: "Would you care to carry a small gift to Lord Fear for me?"
Nathan: "I would do that for you."
Maldame: "You will? Very good. You will find it aboard a Golden Galleon. It is a glass globe. Do not hand it to Lord Fear in person. Place it on the ground wherever you are when it starts to glow with an amber glow. Perhaps you're not such a frightful child after all! Thank you Nathan. Dismiss."
Seemingly during the next scene (but possibly filmed separately, as the team were neither shown nor heard during the conversation), Majida asked Treguard, "Was it right to accept task from Maldame without getting some kind of reward?" Treguard: "Well, in the circumstances, it seems extremely generous, but it's done now."
Later, when Nathan had sidestepped down a hole in the fireball chamber, Treguard told them: "Some extra magic might have helped you with this very difficult puzzle, team - and you could have got that magic from Maldame. But you didn't, did you?"
It is certainly open to interpretation whether or not this sequence of events can be taken at face value. In my opinion, if the team really were supposed to ask Maldame for a reward at that point, it was extremely unfair. She gave Nathan ONE brief opportunity to speak, and it's implied that he should have instinctively answered "What will you give me in return?" instead of politely agreeing to carry out a task for her. The team had no way of knowing there would be no further opportunity to negotiate the terms of the agreement, but once she had explained what she wanted him to do, she made it clear that the conversation was over. Harsh. Especially as she had only just ranted about young people being rude and expecting handouts, and they were trying not to get on the wrong side of her, as per Treguard's advice!
It should also be noted that when Hordriss asked Kelly to do him a favour in Series 5, she asked him what he would do for them in return, and he simply replied, "Ah, that is for you to discover when you have agreed to help me." It was supposed to be a risky decision that they would have to make. There was no reason to believe that the situation with Nathan and Maldame was any different.
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Sometimes a teams needed a spell for the Play your cards right room.
If a team dies in the Blades you don't need to tell them they should have needed a spell, you let them think they just weren't good enough, I like to think theses rooms can and should be done without magic (magic should make it easier, but if they're good enough to survive without then far play to them, those rooms are tough)
But had a team insisted on getting help I doubt any info or magic would have been related to the block and tackle or blades. but we shall never know.
It's like the producers have already decided which team they're gonna allow or help win.
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Also for Barry's quest he needed to take a sight potion to help him with play your cards right but for Julie's quest no spells were needed.
I still say for all the teams affected how come they all perished if they required magic or extra help but didn't earn it? If they genuinely didn't need any spells or anything else then I would put it down to the teams panicking and it got to them.
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