As we've now entered an era where every British TV watcher is a potential Challenge watcher, the door is wide open for substantial viewing figures, perhaps even substantial enough to make a DVD release less unlikely than ever before.
To elaborate on that, Challenge moved from being Sky/cable only to Freeview as well just over a year ago, and virtually everyone has Freeview nowadays. A larger audience equals higher ad revenues equals new programming equals (potentially) good news for Knightmare!
Long time no post from me.
Always puzzled me why the rights owners haven't ordered a take-down from YouTube (yet) but I'd like to think that assuming that they know about them, the decision not to do anything was one of pragmatism. After all:
It is unlikely they'll ever get repeated on TV again.
The rights owners never intended to release the episodes on DVD and therefore are not losing out on revenue from this.
The user who uploaded them is not profiting from them.
The videos are not of broadcastable quality.
In effect, they would appear to be the TV equivalent of abandonware (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware), but just to be absolutely clear, that in no way means that they are legal.
As for a potential download/DVD release, if the view counts are anything to go by then I don't think that the interest is there. There are spikes for the first and last parts of each series but with few exceptions, the views are in the low to mid thousands for each part of each episode. The problem I see there is that the people you want sell a download to will be the ones who make up the YouTube view count.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110636535857
OK, it's ended now but I was going to put in a cheeky bid if there wasn't much interest. Unfortunately for me, there was and the items went for rather a lot more than I thought they would...Anyone from the community own up to purchasing them?
Hi Aldarion
I understand where you're coming from but I think that digital distribution/downloads/whatever you want to call them present an opportunity to get this fan project off the ground. When an official release of Knightmare was first being talked about, VHS was still the dominant video format - how times have changed!
The fact remains: people want physical copies of audio/video things which will last decades rather than years - and we are entitled to have them.
I agree to an extent. What your average home user hasn't quite grasped the concept of is the need for regular back-ups of your data which will ensure longevity. Overcome this by using "the cloud" or having your own server and the problem goes away and people feel more comfortable with digital copies of everything. I'll admit that this is some way off though.
You mention Blu-Ray - personally I will not be replacing my DVD collection but I will buy Blu-Rays for new releases. Quite simply, if it hasn't been filmed in HD then the remastering efforts are variable to say the least and I don't see the value in upgrading. The benefits were clear with the leap from VHS to DVD - better sound and picture quality, scene selection, extras, subtitles, different languages, watch on the computer, and no need to rewind and fast-forward. The only advantages that Blu-Ray offers over DVD is potentially better sound and picture quality. VHS/DVD/Blu-Ray will all get blown out of the water when the entire country gets 20 meg minimum broadband connections which would enable streaming and fast downloading of HD content. Again, that's some way off though...
Cheers,
Tiggy
on level 2 with the room with 5 doors which door do i need to take
Not the far left or far right one. I'm at the same point and haven't had a chance to play through again.
Thanks to thejackal1975 for the game. I've really enjoyed it and somehow it evokes the spirit of Knightmare. Any chance of a sequel?
Apparently Challenge is coming to Freeview sometime next year (actual date to be confirmed). Perhaps now would be a good time to lobby Challenge to get Knightmare back on TV? Someone has already mentioned it on a thread here - http://www.challenge.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?s=73e03f436d76d2d9b21cd0612c8bab9c&threadid=10801 although the natives don't seem all that friendly
Cheers and Merry Christmas,
Tiggy
Another big problem with YouTube is that the videos have a bad habit of disappearing. This can be through copyright claims, or as happened to me the other day, one of the users that I subscribed to closed their account, and along with that went all of their videos. Unfortunately a lot of them were rather rare and specialist and I haven't ever seen them anywhere else to either watch/listen, buy, or download. It looks as though they may be gone for ever. The lesson there is although YouTube is a pretty amazing resource, you can't rely on your favourite videos to be there next time you want to see it.
I've had a bit of spare time this weekend so decided to have a run through some of the old posts on here. There's some fascinating stuff, particularly on the technology side of things - VHS was still in use and DVD players were still a bit pricey - this was causing arguments as to which format a legitimate Knightmare release should be on. Also, Knightmare clips were watched using Realplayer on dial-up modems, and YouTube didn't turn up on the scene until 2005...Contrast this with today:
VHS is dead. Optical media is still thriving although there is a new competitor out there...
Broadband speeds are fast enough to allow for fast download of files and even streaming of sound and video.
YouTube is massive - I've been amazed at what is out there, especially the obscure stuff that turns up.
Still no legal release of Knightmare
A reason given for not releasing Knightmare on DVD was that the demand wouldn't be there. Piracy was sited as one of the reasons, although I suspect that it was more of an excuse - getting commercial DVDs out on to the market was, and still is an expensive business with no guarantee of getting your money back let alone a decent return. This was years ago and things have moved on...
No one who has visited this site could fail to notice the new campaign to get legitimate copies of Knightmare episodes released. There are some big differences this time - fan-led, non-commercial, and looking to on-line distribution. Without the costs associated with DVDs and making a profit not the primary goal, the idea suddenly becomes viable. I can only hope that the time comes soon when Mystara decides to purchase the first episode. I believe that in turn would lead to demand for more given the decent audio and video quality compared to what you can find on YouTube. Please support it!
Even if this doesn't go far or doesn't happen at all, I think that sometime in the distant future there will be a chance of being able to download/watch episodes of Knightmare (and other programmes) quite legally. Before I explain, this would be years away so don't hold your breath or stop supporting the current campaign. It's also only a theory so may never happen:
Basically there's thousands of programmes out there languishing in the archives. All of the older stuff will be sitting on magnetic tape which will eventually degrade or may be destroyed for whatever reason (this has happened already with some programmes) and the machines that play them may break down beyond repair. The risk is that anything that wasn't considered viable for a commercial release could end up lost forever. A commercial release is no guarantee of quality, it is about what people will buy and thus make money. Just because a programme hasn't had a commercial release, it doesn't mean that it isn't important for whatever reason. Using Knightmare as an example, it could be considered important due to being the bringing in the highest viewing figures for a children's programme of it's time, the innovative techniques used in production, and also the unusually high production values. The solution is digital archiving, that is to say the transfer of all the old stuff on tape on to disc. This presents the following benefits:
Preservation of television history. The archive will be electronic and if properly managed would allow for better record keeping, back-ups will be kept, etc.
Raise revenue by opening up the archive so that people can watch what they want on demand - access could be charged for, although not necessarily by programme but by the day/week, etc. Adverts could be played at the start of programmes also.
Selling or otherwise disposing of the original masters will save on physical storage space which is a lot more expensive than space on a server.
Obviously the above would be a massive undertaking in terms of time and cost but if there is any desire to keep recordings of old programmes then it has to be done, and if you are going to do it then at least try and recoup some of your costs. Ultimately I can see a time when I'll be able to go to the ITV or BBC websites and watch more or less anything in their archives on demand. Just to reiterate though, I can't see it happening for five, maybe ten years - don't hold your breath.
In the meantime though, the television companies are missing a trick - just go on to YouTube and check out the number of views that programmes like Knightmare or The Mary Whitehouse Experience are getting. DVD releases may be out of the question but downloads/streaming are now viable and are likely to be dominant way of distribution in the future. This leads to opportunities that never previously existed...
Only six and a half years late! This wasn't Knightmare, it was Starstrider. It was a shown a few years prior to Knightmare but in the same slot on CITV and I'm glad that I'm not the only one who remembers, although it was 25 years ago...
Is that it then?
Has 'Something' turned into nothing?
I guess so, that is for anything new and official on the Knightmare side of things. I read somewhere a while back that 99% of children's programmes shown in the UK are imported. Of the 1% that aren't, only the BBC are making/commissioning new programming. That may go some way to explain why any concept that Tim Child may have had didn't get off the ground. With only one broadcaster and banks not lending money, it was always going to be tricky. I suspect that like Knightmare was back in 1987, it was ahead of it's time, pretty spectacular, but unfortunately rather expensive . I would be fascinated to learn what it was and if TC fancies popping back in and letting us know what we missed out on...
The best move any single person can make would be to go and stick a fiver in to Google adwords.
If 500 people click on the link, then 500 people know about it. If they all tell two people, then 1000 people know about it.
Even if only 20% of them sign up and post their support, that's 200 more names.
It's what I'll be doing when the new site launches. Though I'm of limited funds and money spent there is money that can't be spent on buying episode rights.
Hello Mystara!
I have a £30 Google Adwords voucher that I got as part of a package from setting up a company recently. I'm never going to use it so I'm happy to donate it with the only proviso that it be used to promote knightmare.com and/or legal Knightmare DVDs/downloads. If you're interested, please PM me for the details.
Cheers,
Tiggy
Nope, it was eight episodes for season one, ten for season eight, and all the others 16. Not to say that it wouldn't still be pricey, bit if this plan were to go ahead, season one would be the cheapest (and most wise!).
Seasons 6 and 7 had 15 episodes I thought giving a total of 112. So based on the estimated download pricing, a cost of £112 to £224 for everything. I don't think that's unreasonable at all given that you pay 79p per song at itunes...
Wow Mystara - thanks for the numbers, and I have to say that I'm rather shocked! Again, excuse my ignorance but surely a deal could be done given that it is a 15+ year old children's game show that will never see the light of day on a commercial basis again? I would have thought that some money is better than nothing for the rights holders...
Anyway, there's a £113M Euromillions jackpot this Friday and if I get a sizeable chunk of that I'll be more than happy to fund a DVD release
Ignoring DVDs for a second, how much money are we talking here to secure distribution rights to allow downloading of:
One episode?
A series?
The lot?
Is the main cost paying off the actors that were involved? What other major costs are involved? Please excuse my ignorance here, I'm not too familiar with the industry.
Cheers,
Tiggy
Hey Mystara - it's been around six months since the initial post regarding legit copies of Knightmare. I was just wondering if there was any update on your original post - so is there enough interest? When would there be a yes/no decision made?
Cheers (and still supportive of both downloads and DVD/Blu Ray copies),
Tiggy
Well, Broadsword Television Productions Limited has been struck off and dissolved as of today. This was for non-filing of anything at Companies House for a long, long time. Intermedialab is currently being wound up, and from the information I found on the Companies House website, it would appear to be compulsory rather than voluntary. I wonder what happened?
Might be a coincidence but I saw something identical on ebay a few days ago but I can't find the listing now - are you the seller? I was very tempted by the 99p starting price by the way...
Just to offer my personal perspective, I was never a prolific poster for various reasons - other things got in the way like trying to live in the UK and work in another country and the crapper parts of life that although inevitable, unfortunately will come to some sooner rather than later I did pop in occasionally as a guest to read the forums on an irregular basis though. Since I first posted back in 2003 a lot has changed - the Challenge repeats have come and gone, KMVR the same and the future very uncertain. My life has changed a lot - I'm 30 now and I've got a job closer to home but I'm also married with two children under two therefore I have little time for much outside of family at the moment - note my posting times! I'm sure I'm not the only Knightmare fan with these circumstances...
So why did I pop back? Well, I guess I wanted closure on a couple of things:
New Knightmare
DVD/download release of the original episodes
Since Tim Child has gone to ground I did my own research and from what I found (see previous posts) point one will never happen in my opinion. Fair play to Tim, he's tried but it never got any backing. Risk adverse broadcasters and the recession have not helped matters but there is also the fact that TC is in his sixties now and may well have had enough and be ready for retirement. I'll share any new information that I find out here. As for point two, I'm not sure if the support is there - I'm not seeing the numbers on this forum or Facebook. It would be great to get a definitive yes or no answer (preferably yes). Here's hoping.
As for the future, what happens? I can't really see much to talk about bar new fan creations - nothing new is happening. That said, this site is fantastic and needs preserving, even if there is no new content. I was a big fan of Knightmare and it would be a huge shame for the memories to fade away.
Thanks - happy to be corrected on that.
Interim update - the domain intermedialab.co.uk was renewed for a further two years. There's no website and there's a possibility that it happened automatically - mine are set to do that.
I've also found out that Broadsword Interactive Limited - http://www.broadsword.co.uk/ - a spin-off from Broadsword Television were liquidated on 29th September. The MD was David Rowe, the artist responsible for the drawings used in the design of the early series dungeons.
The proposal to strike off Broadsword Television is still ongoing. There was a previous strike off attempt in 2008 but it was called off for reasons unknown to me - possibly a creditor objected. Doing some further research, if it is struck off and dissolved then the assets pass to the Crown. If I recall correctly then Broadsword Television own the rights to Knightmare - Knightmare would effectively be nationalised!
By the way, the last episode was broadcast for the first time 15 years ago today...