Haha same here on the old commador, expecting low-fi adventure but couldn't get out of the second room Could of enlisted the help of games master aka Patrick Moore I suppose...

You're kidding

Give the old man the food and the water (you start off with these already in your inventory), and then ask the old man. He'll drop a spade, so pick it up and go to the second room, then dig by the door.

I imagine they didn't go for Robin Hood as a character because Tim Child was getting fed up of characters derived from old legends in the series. It's why Morghanna only lasted one season, and why he eventually got rid of Mogdred and Merlin too.

I was under the impression that John Woodnutt was unable to continue playing the roles for health reasons, after which he sadly passed away. I've not heard of those characters being axed for any reason other than Woodnutt simply not being available, so this is news to me.

"Why would Knightmare being on BBC2 prevent the show being exported to the US any more than if it were broadcast on BBC1?"

How did you come to this conclusion? I never said anything of the sort.

I said BBC 2 might be the more appropriate than BBC 1, for the reasons that Mystara expressed earlier in the discussion.

It was this paragraph that led me to that conclusion:

I agree it wouldn't sell in the US. But they could have another go at making their version.. thankfully we wouldn't have to watch it.. lol (been watching those Spanish/French versions on youtube... )

I'm maybe reading between the lines here way too much. You mentioned the US making their own version, just after you pointed out the show wouldn't sell in the US - surely if the US were wanting to make a version, given the current era post Doctor Who, wouldn't they prefer the original version, British charm intact?

I got a bit confused, and so considered that you may be saying the BBC can't or won't export BBC2 programming for some reason. That's the only way I can think of where there would be a good marketing opportunity that can't be catered for, though it would be the first I'd heard of this, and considering your response to my post, completely incorrect to begin with

What if the team were in a scripted Level 1 which absolutely hinged on being granted a spell, and the spell being granted to them by a wall monster? Just for once, the three correct answers would be vital. Since that's almost too difficult a requirement for Level 1, their chances of pulling off such a feat will have needed to be improved - hence the "TRUTH" spell.

This idea still doesn't get past the air of coincidence though. The only team that couldn't get any riddles right 'just happens' to be the team that got a generic spell that can be used as a substitute for a correct answer. Given the way quests were usually scripted fairly tightly, spells tended to be given out with a view to what was going to happen later, which is fine i.e. they're really a possible 'third clue object'. But how did the production team know that the team wouldn't get any answers right at all?

To put it down just to a big slice of luck is... well, it's possible, but it's just a bit difficult to swallow.

I totally see the coincidence that could have played out and why it looks, on the face of it, unlikely. I posted earlier about other reasons why I suspect the start of that quest to be quite fishy, I'm simply trying to be open to all possibilities.

Knightmare is certainly no stranger to coincidence and sheer luck. There are plenty of times where fluke or destiny results in an outcome that was far better than the one anticipated by the production team, and these situations can often appear fishy when they're not.

You only have to look as far as the final team of Series 1 losing the game at absolutely the best possible point. That situation was completely unplanned or coaxed by the production team, yet still managed to happen... exactly where it needed to.

Sheer luck and coincidence can't be ruled out. That particular quest does look decidedly fishy, but both the "TRUTH" spell being used by the one team that may have gotten all three answers incorrect, and the bomb room appearing (and the response by Treguard) in the same quest that could easily have been failed right from the start (if the team chose the "FIRE EXIT" door) conspire to make me suspicious, but I guess that's all part of the magic of Knightmare

I wasn't sure if they gave them a Truth spell to make sure they got at least one correct, maybe being all girls the production team thought they might not be as good? (But a wall monster eating a dungenner would be cool, other than the blocker later series)

I'm all but certain assumptions of that nature simply wouldn't have been made, after all it would have been borderline sexism, that makes little sense when you consider that (during that period of time) on average girls out-performed boys at school. I managed to somehow be in set 1 in all my school classes, and apart from a handful of the same male faces those classes consisted primarily of girls

If we're going to assume the "TRUTH" spell was a unique but legitimate and planned feature of that team's Level 1, there are two possibilities as far as I can see:

1. The spell was intended for use later in the dungeon. The troll did say that misuse of the spell would be dangerous, but it's difficult to imagine how a spell with a name such as "TRUTH" could be dangerous in any way. Perhaps a later room required the use of the spell to pass safely, meaning that the team would have failed their quest if they made it to that point, even if they'd taken the ice pack for Lillith.

2. A wall monster was being used to it's fullest here. As we know a team has to answer three riddles, the outcome differing depending on how many correct answers were given.

One correct answer allows the dungeoneer to pass, no real clues are given beside the occasional statement of the quest object; though most teams could usually use a combination of their wits, logic, luck and the Adventurer's Code to pick the correct two clue objects to pass the obstacles ahead.

Two correct answers grants the team a cryptic clue; these clues are usually fairly obvious (but not always), and usually help point out one correct clue item, one clue item to be avoided or sometimes both. This clue is normally all that's required, because if the Adventurer's Code is followed the proper two clue objects are usually abundantly clear.

Three correct answers is the tricky one: the team may command the wall monster, and this can result in anything from a clue-object clue that practically states which two objects to take, to being granted a spell.

It's worth noting that no team was ever seen getting every answer wrong. This may be the cause of the controversy, since every team has managed at least one correct answer and either passed or failed the level based on the particular clue objects they decided to take. Since the answers given to the wall monster don't affect which items are available, even with no clues at all there is still a possibility the team might take two correct items - especially if there is a dagger or other blatant object to be avoided among the choices.

So it all hinges on what exactly was intended to happen at the three correct answers stage. Since it was rare (but not exactly unheard of) for all three answers to be given correctly, the reward for three correct answers wasn't usually anything particularly vital - a bonus clue that wasn't absolutely necessary though helpful nonetheless being the normal reward.

What if the team were in a scripted Level 1 which absolutely hinged on being granted a spell, and the spell being granted to them by a wall monster? Just for once, the three correct answers would be vital. Since that's almost too difficult a requirement for Level 1, their chances of pulling off such a feat will have needed to be improved - hence the "TRUTH" spell.

The majority of teams, when confronted with a wall monster, managed two correct answers out of three to the point where it was the general expected result. Most teams struggled with at least one riddle, and the "TRUTH" spell may very well have existed to essentially remove that one tricky riddle from the table, and essentially act as a lifeline in maintaining a perfect score.

The controversy is expedited by the team's inability to answer the first riddle correctly, at which point the "TRUTH" spell was used. Had the team correctly managed the first riddle, but used the spell for either the second or the third then we'd have had some indication that the spell was intended, not to guarantee the team the ability to survive the chamber, but to work towards a difficult to obtain reward that in this case could have been more vital than usual.

Hehe, just seen Akash's advisor Tania on Twitter, presumably watching their quest! She says it wasn't restarted.

That's not a lot to go by, since they wouldn't have needed to literally restart the quest. In addition to the "TRUTH" spell mystery, I find it distinctly odd that the only marked door in the first room is "FIRE EXIT", while the third (literally the second if you don't count the troll room) is the bomb room.

Treguard's comment, "This team seems to hunt for trouble.", suggests to me that originally Akash might have been led to the "FIRE EXIT" door - a bizarre choice since most other teams expect "FIRE EXIT" to lead to danger. As would have been expected, the room that follows would have been the bomb room.

There's one possible blunder right there, which might have happened and been covered up in the final edit of the footage by a simple relocation of the "FIRE EXIT" graphic among other things.

Bomb rooms should be dealt with quickly and here we have Tregaurd having a rant slowing the team up.. lol The other team struggled in theirs as well, nice touch teasing them with the food.

Where normally the dungeoneer needs to get from one side of the room to the other, the entry point was much closer to the exit. That being the case, they certainly took their time exiting that room even after Treguard's rant. I rewound that bit on my Sky+ and timed it just to see - they took just over 30 seconds and the bomb still hadn't gone off!

Incidentally out of interest, is this the only episode of Knightmare in all 8 series which was not a first episode, yet began with a new quest? I can't remember any other situation where a quest neatly ended just in time for temporal disruption, besides Series 1 Episode 8, that would enable this to happen.

Was so good to see Akash and his team again! May not have been the best team but on3 of the most entertaining! Out of interest I think the team were the only one's in Series 2 who didn't go into the wheel of fortune room to pull the lever to decide which room to start off in. I wonder why this was?

In Series 1 Episode 6 a similar situation happened, where Richard entered the dungeon to find himself not in the familiar room with four exits (which is the starting point for every adventure that season), but instead in a modified version of the Catacombite's lair that featured a grid that needed to be lowered over a pit in the center of the room by standing on a strange omega-shaped symbol.

In light of this, in this episode (Series 2 Episode 7) it's almost uncanny that Akash found himself in the four-door Series 1 entry point rather than the Wheel of Fortune, because it's one more use as the first room to make up for the time it wasn't used.

As far as I can recall, Series 3 quests always began with the dungeoneer throwing the dice.

I don't think there is anything to fear from the BBC. They did have Time Busters remember.

But the more I think about it the current format might not work on this Saturday night family slot, someone else raised a very good point about how the show might change to suite that slot. I think BBC TWO would be a better home. Knightamre still has a 'cult' following I think, it's seems common place to associate it with 'geek culture' and it's quite an intellectual show I suppose, So it's current format which is perfect wouldn't feel out of place on bbc 2.

When bbc 2 is home to shows like QI, Science club for example Knightamre wouldn't be out of place, (and those shows do have pretty good ratings, well I watch them lol)

I agree it wouldn't sell in the US. But they could have another go at making their version.. thankfully we wouldn't have to watch it.. lol (been watching those Spanish/French versions on youtube... )

.

Why would Knightmare being on BBC2 prevent the show being exported to the US any more than if it were broadcast on BBC1? As long as the BBC have broadcast and distribution rights to the series, and there's a market overseas, there shouldn't be a problem for BBC Worldwide to bring the show to the US regardless of which channel it's shown on in the UK.

And in the situation where the BBC can't or won't export the show, wouldn't Time Child and DungeonMaster Ltd (presumably) retain the ability to do so themselves? There's always that option, and considering the US is currently enjoying a number of British shows, there's a hunger for British programming so they would no-doubt welcome the original version completely unchanged.

I understand that the advisors will see the blades via the eye shield but why can't the dungeoneer face the rear while holding the shield in front of them? That way the directions wouldn't be backwards.

Apologies if I'm misunderstanding you - it's been a long week

I was thinking towards the backwards directions being the whole point, though you've just pointed out the one stumbling block with that concept. For this idea to work there would need to be a genuine reason why the dungeoneer can't simply turn around and tackle the the problem that way, and I can't tbink of one

Since posting that idea I also realised that if the dungeoneer were to simply rotate the shield round his arm so that it still faces outwards when held to his back, the shield (and therefore the video feed) would be upside-down. To get the shield to be the right way around he/she would have to take the shield off his arm, flip it over and then put it back on - a fiddly process that he or she simply might not have the time to actually perform.

Never mind a cameo, if the corridor of blades wasn't totally in the new series, my interest would drop by 50%!

I think it's safe to say the popularity and notoriety of that room pretty much guarantees that the concept will resurface as a fixture in a new series. Whether the Corridor of Blades will return in it's original form is the real question.

Time and technology has moved on, and I think we can look forward to some improvements and alterations - for example the legendary vertical blades that never happened could finally become reality.

You could say that about a commercial channel as well though. I don't like the idea of advertisers potentially interfering in production either, which could happen too. In the end, any channel that broadcasts the show is the 'customer' of the production team, and so any channel has the potential to interfere.

I never realized the advertisers really had any pull over the content of the actual shows, though I do understand they can choose which shows they want their products or services to be advertised alongside and occasionally sponsor.

I've always imagined there was a far greater risk that ITV or the majority of satellite channels, would suddenly stop commissioning a programme in favor of something else rather than become directly involved in the production process - though saying it like that suddenly reminds me of the original cancellation of Knightmare, which makes me fear that history could repeat.

Am I the only one terrified of the prospect of the BBC getting Knightmare?

They're large and powerful, especially with the Worldwide arm (which would certainly provide easy worldwide marketing opportunities, as well as DVD releases), but I fear the BBC would try to slowly seize control over the show itself and heavily influence it's content. A BBC-ised Knightmare, to me, simply wouldn't be Knightmare.

Knightmare has always been a product of ITV, so of course they should have first priority to broadcast a new series, but Challenge has been very kind to the show in giving the original series a platform. I'm wary of Channel 4 and 5, but they are similar enough in nature to ITV for the Knightmare format to fit right.

I just don't want the BBC Director General (or anyone else 'high-up') trying to buy the series flat-out or giving direct orders to the production team concerning length, content or anything else. There's no need to sanitize the show. I've no idea whether there's truly any danger of this, but I am fearful.

If you look, the endcap of the Geek Week episode states it is "A DungeonMaster production for YouTube"!

Indeed it does (slaps forehead) lol

I guess that answers the little mystery I posted about, since we now know it's related to Knightmare. As it's an actual company that's been formed, I'd have said the plot thickens in regards to there being a follow-on series - however we already know the plan to a certain degree thanks to Tim himself speaking of the Geek Week episode plus additional footage being edited to form a proper pilot he can market for a new series.

From this we can see that, in the event the pilot is successful, Tim would remain in the production loop of the new series (as managing director of Dungeon Master Ltd), whether or not he chooses to come out of retirement to manage and produce the show as he always has.

I do like the idea of making the eyeshield an active object - exploring the ceiling is a neat touch. Not sure about the behind the back thing (wouldn't you just get the dungeoneer to turn around?) but the backwards directions is fun. Present the advisors with a flip of the actual image and watch the carnage! (There was a dizzy game with a couple of rooms the other side of a magic mirror which reversed the controls).

Traditionally the camera view is fixed. Whenever the dungeoneer moves, he moves within that fixed space but the camera doesn't adjust to his position or facing. If he/she simply rotated 180 degrees in the COB, we'd have a dungeoneer facing us which dies pretty quickly as the advisors can't see the blades.

Since the dungeoneer him/herself is supposed to be blind, it doesn't follow that the advisers view should be based around physical position or rotation at all, though the Eye Shied does circumvent this, while introducing the "reversed directions" concept I posted about earlier. Simply spinning the camera behind the back of a dungeoneer who's turned around wouldn't have this additional obstacle.

I wasn't suggesting that being cutting edge was the reason KM was popular (though it helped it stand out) but rather that Tim Child, who has been described as an innovator (by Dave Morris, possibly others), probably wouldn't shy away from a new method of distribution even if unproven.

Seems I misunderstood the gist of your post after the point you said "cutting edge". You're absolutely right there - though now you mention it I'd say mere online streaming might not quite be innovative enough for Knightmare, even though it would be nice. I wonder if an innovative and new way of using the internet in new Knightmare episodes can be found - but if anyone can do it, Tim Child can

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. They can't get from one row of letter tiles to another without first jumping onto the platform that the axes swing over, which is when they're in danger of getting hit. (Have you seen the KMVR pilot?)

Ah! I watched that KMVR episode a bunch of times when I was trying to get my head around how the SMDM worked and I could have sworn the blades go in the gaps - the diagram in my last post (which I can't yet edit thanks to my pink username) illustrates what I thought I was seeing.

Now I see that you were saying the blades swing over the "safe" platforms that don't have letters on them, not the gaps between.

So you were right all along! I was so absolutely sure the blades swung over the gaps because that's how it looked to me. In hindsight I feel kind of silly because there's a thin dark line that goes horizontally across those platforms which should have clued me in

Don't the axes swing between the rows of tiles, meaning that the only time they could be hit by them is while they're in the process of crossing?

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. They can't get from one row of letter tiles to another without first jumping onto the platform that the axes swing over, which is when they're in danger of getting hit. (Have you seen the KMVR pilot?)

Yes, the KMVR pilot is what I'm basing this off since it's unclear where exactly the blades are swinging in the Geek Week episode itself.

Here's a diagram of how the SMDM appears to me:

        XXXXXXX
BLADE ->
        X X X X
               <- BLADE
        XXXXXXX
BLADE ->
        X X X X
               <- BLADE
        XXXXXXX

In that crude diagram, the spaced "X" are the tiles with letters on them, while the other "X" are the safe platforms. Neither type appear to drop so they're all safe places a dungeoneer can stand and position him/herself for the leap across the next gap.

When the dungeoneer is standing on the letter tiles, if the blades swing by one will pass behind the dungeoneer in the space he/she just crossed, while the other will pass in front, in the space he/she needs to cross next.

The only time a dungeoneer can actually get hit by a blade is if he/she is actively jumping or stepping forward across a gap at the moment when the blades swing. If the dungeoneer is in a position where he/she would be hit by the blades and doesn't have solid footing on a safe tile then it's a death by falling into the pit instead.

EDIT: Yeah, I totally understand what you meant now - see below

When I look at the Geek Week episode, it appears that the rooms are in full 3D even though they retain the classic Rowe-painting style quite nicely. This means the show should be able to afford camera angles that simply weren't possible in the past because of the 2D nature of the room artwork.

Going too far into 3D carries the risk that you'd slowly lose much of the feel that the 2D environments in the past oozed. To that end, the Eye Shield should definitely be included because the regular dungeon environments now support free camera angles, though it's use should be re-imagined to avoid supplanting the manual dungeoneer navigation or becoming boring through repetition.

The Eye Shield is literally an eye on a shield. That sounds obvious, but until now it's simply been a passive object. What hasn't been seized on the the shield's mobility, specifically the dungeoneer's ability to direct the shield around rather than vice-versa.

So picture this - the (now 3D realised) classic David Rowe rooms return and we're in one of the chambers in Level 1. Looking through a spyglass we see Lord Fear point out that he's marked the solution to an upcoming puzzle on the ceiling just in case he forgets. The team then reach that room, and of course we once again see things from a static 2D point of view. What is required would be for the dungeoneer to point the eye of the shield upwards, at which point the advisor's view is replaced with a live camera-angle of that room based around the shield's point of view, during which the puzzle solution can be seen.

Another situation: another spyglass reveals Lord Fear has finally devised a solution to the problem of too many dungeoneers surviving the dreaded corridor of blades - he's reversed the mechanism. Forearmed with this knowledge, upon entering the corridor the dungeoneer must hold the shield behind his back in order to see the blades approaching from the rear...

But there's another evil twist: if the eye shield is positioned behind the dungeoneer, when a blade approaches and the advisers give instructions to avoid it, they must instruct the dungeoneer to move in the opposite direction than would immediately appear. A blade approaching on the left hand side of the screen would instinctively cause the team to move the dungeoneer to the right, but since the camera angle is reversed they would have to move him to the left.

And of course, if the dungeon is actually in 3D, but simply displayed in 2D, then the Eye Shield is could be used at any time to give the advisors a better view of certain areas of a room or angles that can't be seen normally.

Why not use a sight potion or spell instead? The reason is simple, to encourage ingenuity and encourage lateral thinking. Ordinarily, if the dungeoneer earns a sight potion or magic spell he/she is expecting to use it within the next room or at least some point nearby, and is therefore on alert to look for the right time to use it. The Eye Shield, if always as ever present as the Helmet of Justice, becomes a familiar tool, usually worn on the arm, in the team's arsenal which the team must keep in mind that they possess throughout the adventure, and can be both a help and a hindrance (for example, if used for too long in inappropriate locations the team won't be able to see a pack of goblins sneaking up on them, which is a nice nod to the dangers claimed to be posed by too much spyglass gazing).

Sight spells and potions would still exist, but their sight would be magical, either allowing the dungeoneer him/herself to briefly be able to see, or revealing the true path or true nature of an object.

I didn't consider an internet only KM when I wrote my 'revisited' article but I'm not sure the market/technology is mature enough to support it. That said, KM was always at the cutting edge...

Knightmare being on the cutting edge back in the day is a well established fact, yet I don't see it as being the reason why it was so popular. Being cutting edge was enough to grab people's attention and generate media attention, but it was the entertainment value of the show itself that sustained the audience if managed to attract.

That was in the days before widespread online access. Even if Knightmare is no longer cutting edge, if it's a good enough show (which we all know it's capable of being) it will still generate a sizable audience of new fans who spread word of the joy via the magic of social networking and the internet.

Being "cutting edge" was a string to Knightmare's bow, but it wasn't the bow itself. We have Tim Child, Hugo Myatt, Mark Knight and all the other brilliant individuals involved to thank for that, not just the processing power of a computer

While the blades are scary and dangerous looking, they're purely psychological if used at the speed they were in the Geek Week episode. On Level 3 they would be made to swing much more frequently, but considering they only ever swing over the gap between the tile rows the dungeoneer is never in danger of being hit by them unless he/she is in the middle of crossing over when they swing.

But they have to jump onto the platform where the axes swing, then sidestep along it before jumping onto the next row of tiles, so there is a very real danger of being hit by an axe if they dither too much.

Don't the axes swing between the rows of tiles, meaning that the only time they could be hit by them is while they're in the process of crossing?