Series 3 - Episode 3
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An unfair death indeed- as has been said, much of what McGrew said after being spellcast was just random shouting, and it's not until half a second before the dungeoneer leaves when he says 'I'll do anything for ye!' and by then it's too late.
This new team have had quite a few close shaves- they very nearly died in the bomb room after a 'sidestep left-right!' incident, paniced like mad when the Ogre said 'RAAAAAAAAH!' despite being miles away, almost fell off the chasm in what used to be the Troll's lair, and Simon stumbled a bit on the Spindizzy. I noticed he called out the advisors names in the wrong order, too. I do like bits where teams appear astounded by the CGI, though- Deborah said 'Ooh!' when the dice unfolded!
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I missed the first couple of minutes and also Tom has covered most things. So basically very short time from the start of the episode to when the team are killed off. They meet McGrew, almost get killed off and so they make him dance. With his pleas, which we can clearly hear they ignore and make their getaway only to find themselves in the room with the minecart entrance and a sword guarding it. The sword then comes after them and with them trying to escape from it get their lifeforce completely drained.
New team we see the corridor of the Catacombs again for another series and this time with an Ogre in it, which comes after Simon. Simon just manages to escape being blown up in the in the bomb room and the team do really well answering Golgarach's riddle's, which again more riddle's I couldn't answer. Went past the Dreaded Kar, which I doubt would have harmed him unless he went too close, which then he probably would've fallen off the edge. Almost get caught up by Grimwold again, who follows him until he meets Velda. Throws down the gauntlet (glove) when asks to prove himself Velda the fights off grimwold when he reaches them. In a dark room Simon is asked to hold up the candle, which lights up the room. The team guide him to the food (crab) near by and then out off the room, which Simon almost falls off the ledge as the advisor says sidestep left instead of right when he is near the door. They are just lucky. we see Mrs G doing or trying to do some knitting and ends up dropping the needle when saying "knit one, pearl one, drop one". Tries to guide Simon the wrong way to the well, until the advisors step in and stop Simon. Mrs G then decides to point Simon in the right direction. Go down the well and land on Spin dizzy, which appeared to make Simon slightly dizzy and he wobbled a bit. Stepped off at the crown door at the same moment time out took place.
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it didn't even cross the teams mind to dispell as they guided the dungeoneer out and I don't think that sort of thing was repeated in Knightmare.
It does; one team dis-spell TOAD, cast on McGrew by an incognito Mogdred. I believe that he later helps by pushing them in the mine cart, so without them dis-spelling they'd probably have suffered the same fate.
Cliff's team were probably panicking trying to get Cliff out the room, believing him still to be in danger - it was McGrew's first appearance, so probably not played as well as it could have been. Not enough clues to make it obvious that mercy should be shown. But it's not exactly the harshest death ever, either (darkness powder?) - and not many teams get as far as Cliff does this series.
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What I mean is no team is expected to dispell magic that they cast on an ememy!
I remember watching a series 7 or 8 ep when the dungeoneer has to "put his foot down". First he stomps the 2 goblins (or maybe they were miremen) then Raptor. At the time, I wondered if this was going to be a similar explanation where they should have spared Raptor to get help. It turns out this ws not the case and, had he left Raptor, he would probably have been captured and would have lost.
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What I mean is no team is expected to dispell magic that they cast on an ememy!
Well, I think I know what you mean, but that definition isn't valid either because of the ANVIL-type spells in earlier (and later) series; however, in those cases it was pretty obvious (and hints had been given anyway) that it was expected of you to dis-spell the magic, as it had rendered your enemy no longer a problem and was going to do the same to you...
The problem I have with the "no other team was expected to do this" argument (in general - I'm not picking on you here ) is that lots of teams had unique challenges, with some easier than others; however we as watchers do tend to think of the cases where the team prevails as easier than those where the team fails.
Edit: I hate spotting mistakes whilst waiting for the post to submit
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I thought the death was fair enough. McGrew may not have made his "I'll dae anythin' for thee!" appeal until they'd reached the door, but that sounded like a last desperate cry from him - he'd been squealing for mercy right from the instant the spell started up, so it was obvious the team had him on the ropes. Not only would it have been the fair thing to let him go, it would also have been a smart situation to exploit (like when the winners from S6 had Hordriss over a barrel).
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I can see where your coming from Dan, but I still think that this is different.
The ANVIL, SWORD spells etc onlyhad to be dispelled incase they turned on the dungeoneer and this happened *after * the enemy was destroyed. Thus, the dungeoneer was no longer in danger from that character.
(Hope your all following this)
Basically, I don't think that any team since has had to put themselves back into potential danger by dispelling a spell they cast on an enemy, therefore returning the enemy to strength.
There should definatly have been a prompt from Treguard.
(oh well, I know what I mean)
One more thing:
Did the sword only appear because it was a "lock-in" or would we have seen a MacGrew / SWORD sword fight before exitting via the minecart?
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I reckon that McGrew would have accompanied the dungeoneer into the next room as he did have a sword with him. However he could have just told the team how to dis-spell the SWORD.
I think that the current team were let off in the bomb room, as I'm sure it exploded just before the team exited.
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If you look closely in the clue room you'll see that their life force was damaged by the blast, so they didn't get away with it completely. Even so, they were a bit lucky. Such sloppy manoeuvering has been the death of better teams than this throughout KM history.
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I am not certain about the fate of Cliff myself, though I do know this team were always quite 'rushed', (remember the serpent's tongue chamber and Treguard's anxious prompts)
I think if the death was harsh we can't blame Treguard as he had given them enough prompts for one quest!
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I am not entirely sure that it was fair. Many characters have made odd noises once spellbound/attacked etc, and that has not compelled teams to save them on every occasion.
McGrew took far too long to actually show he was at their mercy (in telling them he'd do anything). The rest of the shouts tend to be a little random, and you can see why the team would wish to get out asap. Had his pleas been a little more audible things may have turned out differently.
We get a nice glimpse of the Vale of Vanburn anywya, a nice backwards view with the Ogre....Ogre-ing away in the background.
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Personally for me, I think I must of started watching Knightmare on Citv round about now as McGrew dancing seems REALLY familiar to me..... and not because I watched it when it was first shown on Challenge
The wall monsters too bring about a case of deja vu....
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I'm inclined to say that Cliff's death was fair. Maybe McGrew's pleas would have been easier to pick up on without the music; and maybe those pleas could have been even more overt (McGrew could have said, "Wait a wee minute!" or "Don't leave me like this!" and that might have prompted the team to reconsider the situation); but I think there's something just about a team perishing in their bid for knighthood through not evincing a knightly quality, i.e. showing mercy towards a vanquished foe. And I agree with 123Pooka: Treguard had given the team plenty of prompts prior to that point.
Next time you watch this episode, keep your eyes peeled for a continuity error involving Grimwold's trousers.
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One more thing that's probably worth mentioning about this lot is that they're quite a mature team and perhaps because of this the difficulty level was subtly altered for them. Ways of doing this could simply be such things as letting them take the initiative in whether or not to help people rather than being prompted to do so. It is also right on the threshhold of Level 3, so it seems correct for the team to be tested before proceeding. And with that proximity to Level 3 in mind, Cliff and his advisors might have been disappointed at not making it, but they certainly wouldn't have anything to be ashamed of - it was a better quest than most people manage.
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One point that hasn't been considered so far is what happened between the team and McGrew before DANCE was cast. McGrew did seem hostile, but not to a deadly extent; in my opinion, the team could and should have tried talking to him. After his initial posturing, he asked if Cliff had any valuables, and Cliff could have tried offering information, or stating he was on a quest, or actually asking for mercy. Even a short exchange would have given the team a better feel for McGrew's character - i.e. the lack of real menace behind his hot air*, his willingness to be cooperative under certain circumstances - and as a result they might have been more likely to consider dispelling DANCE after using it to subjugate him. But the team resorted to the spell almost immediately (unless editing has made it seem that way?). Perhaps their panic is understandable, but in a way it was less-than-knightly, which arguably made their death fairer.
*Would McGrew have slain Cliff without DANCE? I don't think so: it would have been too greatly at odds with the loyalty and benevolence he later demonstrated in Ross' quest. I believe he would have checked Cliff for valuables, found none and sent him on his way, leading to the demise Cliff met anyway.
Basically, I don't think that any team since has had to put themselves back into potential danger by dispelling a spell they cast on an enemy, therefore returning the enemy to strength.
There should definatly have been a prompt from Treguard.
I think that's a decent point. Arguably, Treguard's withholding of help is unfair, especially when one considers how he dished out spellcasting/dispelling hints to teams such as the 6th of Series 6 (TRICK or TREAT on Level 3 - I've passed comment on that in the relevant thread). Then again, contrasting incidents from such different series is perhaps unfair in itself.
Just my opinions.
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In my opinion, I think that the Sword death was the one of most scariest of the entire show! Okay! Okay! A lot of you probably won't agree. It is the one that is always in my mind. Once the dugeoneer entered the room and you saw the sword, it was pretty obvious what was about to happen.
However, I do think the death was fair. I can't believe that they would've let the dugeoneer carry on with their actions without being fore-warned [or last at least had the chance to be fore-warned].
Since this was McGrew first debut, he was somewhat of a question mark, but I can't remember, did Treguard prompt them to use the DANCE spell? If he didn't then it would've been the thing to not use the spell and gain McGrew confidence without it. I believe that the DANCE spell may have been intended for the [scary] magic sword, giving McGrew a chance to push the cart thru the forcefield, cos he can't do that and fight the sword at the same time! Can he?
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I don't really see what use the DANCE spell would have been against the sword to be honest, and I'm sure it was always meant to be used on McGrew. As I understood it, the DANCE spell was a test of the team's compassion, and they failed it; they were supposed to dispell it in response to McGrew's pleas, and win his allegiance that way.
If they had done, I suspect that the sword-haunting wouldn't have appeared in the minecart chamber, as it smacks of one of those hauntings that are added in to make a death-scene more dramatic.
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Just watched this episode again today! That sword is still scary, but I still like to watch it.
"Dire emergency team!"
The next team had a scene that I found rather amusing where they meet Velda. She asks them for proof of their quest and the dugeoneer throws down the gauntlet! I thought it was so funny the way he throws it down as if it was with attitude. If that was the dugeoneers attempt to add comic effect, he timed it well. I just had to laugh! I loved it!
I'm also surprised he didn't tell her to pick it up, ....in a commanding voice. They would've probably been killed off or at least suffered, but it sure would've been must-seen tv if he did! hehe
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