TAPE PIRACY
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…Sigh… here we go again.
An official DVD will never happen.
Granada have already made a killing by selling broadcast rights to Challenge. SO… they would be shooting themselves in the foot if they released the DVD. After all, who’s going to watch the Challenge reruns, if they already own the DVD? The ripple effect, then would be, how can Challenge make money from advertising if Knightmare is no longer popular? The bootleg DVDs aren’t hampering an official DVD release, it’s Granada. And since Tim Child was working for Anglia at the time, all IP would belong to Anglia/Granada.
The only thing left, is to ask for the understanding of the seller’s, which, with full respect, Kieran, you have done.
I archive shows (much to the annoyance of my girlfriend) as a hobby. I enjoy archiving shows that I feel will never see an official release. Cystal Maze, Fort Boyard, Gamesmaster, Bad Influence, Frank Skinner etc.
The only reason Knightmare is up for sale is because I know people still watch it. But I refuse to sit in front of my computer burning discs for everyone for free. I pay for Sky subscription, and so can other viewers. But if you want the episodes neatly presently, and edited, then you can pay for it.
I know on the surface, people think a lot of money is being made. I don’t think so. It’s TIME and effort that is being sold.
Knightmare is being rerun in January so anyone that wants to watch it, can install Sky or whatever.
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I also agree with Malefact on this, it is technically stealing, as it is the creator's material and no-one has rights to profit from pirating it, no exemptions.
DVD topics like this have been well discussed in the past and it seems pointless to go over and over what has been said and done.
And yes, they have been "well discussed" but obviously not well discussed enough because it is still an issue.
Edit: Who's to say an official DVD release definately won't happen? There is a large DVD market but still quite a lot of people do not have DVD players and will contimue to watch it on Challenge.
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Last post, ever.
At the end of the day, it's about making money...
Granada make more money selling broadcast rights to Challenge than they could ever from actual DVDs. Corporations are the enemy, not individuals.
I know for a fact that copies are just a stop gap. Fans would still buy the original if it surfaced.
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I'm going to repost Tim Child's post on the matter...
Good to see the offending problem is now absent from Ebay. In response to posts from Malefact and others, let's examine cause and effect on copying. Whilst VHS was the common form of video release, issuing an official version of the KM made programs was not considered economically feasible. Now that DVD is in full flood as a format, this has changed, because a DVD release can take place on a much smaller volume market. Granada Media (Anglia owners) are now genuinely interested in doing a DVD release combining all the KM made programmes + extras. **However they're still cautious as to how big the market is, and worse still they are concerned that much of the needs of that market have been already met by illegal tape copying, So you see - what you do does have an effect - and sometimes the opposite of what you intend. As to identifying the economic losers in copying, you may be right that it's close to a drop in the ocean for G Media. However, all the KM actors and artists whose work you admire are all potential
ly poorer by this operation. Most of them, whilst extremely talented, are far from rich. **
I will do my best to persuade G Media to release via DVD and support it with extra content - like the 1992 US Pilot - Lords of the Game, which none of you has seen.
bva
...to all who read the part marked in bold is of the most relevance.
Fans would still buy the original if it surfaced.
Prehaps, but as highlighted in Tim Child' post these ebay sales may mean that Knightmare doesn't get released.
At the end of the day, it's about making money...
So true, of both any official release and of unauthorised copies sold on ebay.
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knightmare4u, I would seriously advise that you read the DVD thread started by beveryafraid (aka Tim Child).
For info, the TAPE PIRACY thread has now been temporarily moved out of the Klassic Discussion archive into this section. It is locked and sticky. All I can suggest is those who are engaging in this practice please read the post by Tim Child (beveryafraid) and make your own minds up.
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If that wisdom still applies, then the most recent eBay DVD piracy thread, currently residing in General Discussion, could be merged with this one too. This matter is continually a hot topic (even if little else is hot at this late December moment!), and the fewer threads it sprawls across, the easier it is for us to keep track of others' views and refine our own.
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(Off-topic: Wouldn't it have been better & more sensible to contact a mod or admin (eg. via PM) about suggesting a topic merge. Contacting a mod means they are aware, just replying in the topic doesn't necessarily mean they'll read it. Merging is a good idea though.)
Anyway just thought I'd give a handy URL for reporting...
http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/unauthorized-copies.html
Incidentally this page states...
Do not list unauthorised (such as pirated, duplicated, backup, bootleg, and so forth) copies of software programmes, video games, music albums, movies, television programmes, or photographs on eBay.
Towards the bottom of the page is a link entitled "Report listing violations or problems with another eBay member." which takes you to a page where you can write a message along with reporting the auction.
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It was your suggestion originally, but you're welcome!
(Off-topic: Wouldn't it have been better & more sensible to contact a mod or admin (eg. via PM) about suggesting a topic merge. Contacting a mod means they are aware, just replying in the topic doesn't necessarily mean they'll read it. Merging is a good idea though.)
I was going by past experience. On previous occasions, when I've suggested in a thread that it be merged with another, the Moderators have responded unfailingly and efficiently. As far as I know, it's acceptable for me to use that method. (On one occasion, it even led to some fun banter between Mods and members.) I use private messaging for private matters; this wasn't one, as I felt (perhaps arrogantly) that I was speaking constructively on behalf of others as well as myself. It seems a tad contradictory to suggest to me via a public post that private messaging is a better and more sensible option.
![😕](https://www.knightmare.com/forum/assets/plugins/nodebb-plugin-emoji/emoji/android/1f615.png?v=cbb8c768457 ":-\")
I'm not prepared to assume that our Mods don't read active threads. They deserve more credit than that. I have plenty of experience as a Knightmare forum moderator myself, so I know an effective KM Mod when I see one.
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Out of curiousity of how much it really costs to produce these DVDs I did a little research online...
First of all the cost of the DVD:
- Pack of 25 DVD-R (4.7Gb) no cases - £5.99
This works out to £0.24 per DVD
Next the cost of the cases, the type most DVDs come in:
- Pack of 100 DVD case - £6.59
This works out to approximately £0.07 per case
Onto other costs...
I am not including the 'cost of subscription', as generally speaking most people do not buy cable/satelitte subscription only to record a TV programme. Most buy the subscription so that they can also watch other programmes often on other channels, meaning that the recording of Knightmare is fairly irrelevant. Also if they have SKY+ they can set it to record in advance and if I recall it automatically cuts out the adverts.
Cost of time? In my opinion this is a very dubvious cost, after all it depends on how you are recording the episodes and what rate per hour you wish to charge for your time. Therefore I am not including the 'cost of time'.
So onto the final calculations...
Cost of DVD: £0.24 each
Cost of case: £0.07 each
These costs do forget though the cost of delivery, which using the cheapest delivery option in this case would cost £5.79.
Assuming that 4 packs of DVDs were brought so that you ended up with 100 DVDs and 100 cases the new cost each would be...
Cost of DVD: £0.27 each
Cost of case: £0.10 each
**Therefore, assuming that there is 1 DVD per case the actual cost is...
£0.37
Once VAT is added the final cost is...
£0.44**
So probably a lot of pointless calculations and a waste of half an hour later, but it gives a better idea as to how much it actually costs.
As for the cost of postage, apparently the collective weight of 100 DVDs + 100 cases is 10.41Kg, so if my maths is correct the weight per case & DVD is 0.104Kg. I'll let you work out the rest.
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Granada have already made a killing by selling broadcast rights to Challenge. SO… they would be shooting themselves in the foot if they released the DVD. After all, who’s going to watch the Challenge reruns, if they already own the DVD?
Be that as it may, it hasn't stopped other TV shows being released on DVD and later/before being sold to a TV Channel.
The Simpsons is repeated Ad Naseum on Sky One and Channel 4 and all over the world but it hasn't stopped 20th Century Fox releasing it on DVD around the world.
The bootleg DVDs aren’t hampering an official DVD release, it’s Granada.
Its this sort of response that generates all the commotion. This "I will buy a bootleg DVD because Granada haven't made an official one" attitude. Perhaps instead of buying on eBay, it would be more prudent to report it to eBay and fire off another letter of support to Granada?
I archive shows (much to the annoyance of my girlfriend) as a hobby. I enjoy archiving shows that I feel will never see an official release. Cystal Maze, Fort Boyard, Gamesmaster, Bad Influence, Frank Skinner etc.
There is a world of difference between archiving shows for your own personal use (an act which is also technically illegal because it's an unenforced criminal offence of copyright infringement to tape stuff off the telly) and flogging said copies on eBay.
The only reason Knightmare is up for sale is because I know people still watch it.
And I also happen to know that if you put your head in a vice it'll hurt. But I don't go making money out of it on eBay.
But I refuse to sit in front of my computer burning discs for everyone for free. I pay for Sky subscription, and so can other viewers. But if you want the episodes neatly presently, and edited, then you can pay for it.
Maybe you should refuse to sell the the discs in the first place. Then you wouldn't need to come on here and get shouted at every five minutes for your actions.
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I'd just like to thank ebay for actually listening when reports are sent about specific members selling many Knightmare DVDs. One member did have 6 KM DVD auctions on ebay, and all of those auctions have this morning as of 10:45am GMT been removed by ebay.
So do not despair people, sometimes reporting to ebay does get results, you just have to know the right path to take.
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I dont see what the problem is, if people want to watch the show and its not available to purchase in the shops then who cares if its a copy from a tv broadcast?
You really think Mr Fat Cat who owns the copyrights to the show gives a s*** about the show and fans?
All the copyright holder cares about is $$$ because thats their job, not yours.
If people wish to trade these dvds on a fan to fan basis then what the hell is the problem with that?
And furthermore i find it hilarious we have a bunch of people here who are complaining about the copyrights when this site isnt even an OFFICIAL SITE!!
you do realise that without a licence to display all of this content from the show, (images, audio clips, video clips) on this site YOU are infact in breach of the copyrights!!
I am one of the people who purchased all series 1-8 from a guy from ebay, and i am one happy owner the quality is great. The dvds have menus and everything.
You people need to get a grip on real life man, put things into perspective a bit.
The people selling these dvds have a market obviously, how dare you poke your noses into other peoples business preventing sales of something which you dont even own the copyright to.
Your actions are preventing people like me who enjoyed the show growing up being able to see it, without the ebay guys how else would i have been able to watch it?
Ok guys can you please show me a licence that you have to use all of this content on this site?
Do i need to contact the copyright holder and report your site? Its the same thing your doing to the ebay guys.
Mind your own business you have too much time on your hands.
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you do realise that without a licence to display all of this content from the show, (images, audio clips, video clips) on this site YOU are infact in breach of the copyrights!!
I take it this user read the 'terms of use' page?. The contents of this page is similar in wording to that used on many TV presentation websites.
Do i need to contact the copyright holder and report your site? Its the same thing your doing to the ebay guys.
From memory the rights to Knightmare have now reverted back to Televirtual. So if you wish to report knightmare.com to the owner of Televirtual then you are more than welcome. Unfortunately for yourself the owner appears to be Tim Child, who is fully aware of this website. Incidentally worth noting that knightmare.com isn't part of a commercial opperation, compared to dvd sales on ebay.
And furthermore i find it hilarious we have a bunch of people here who are complaining about the copyrights when this site isnt even an OFFICIAL SITE!!
Whilst the argument of "this isn't even an official website" may be true, it does have some official input for example the history pages of the website. If time was taken to read the other pinned dvd topic it would become clear that request is being made from Tim Child, therefore I think this argument is somewhat irrrelevant.
If people wish to trade these dvds on a fan to fan basis then what the hell is the problem with that?
sigh please read the other pinned topic and you should realise why.Remember people the link for reporting auctions is...
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Why does Tim Child want them removed? If he plans to release the show onto official DVDs then its understandable but is he?? I highly doubt it!!
I am a great fan of the show and would 100% purchase an official released boxset if one existed, but it dosnt so i have had to make do with a fan made one.
If Tim Child has no intentions of releasing the shows on DVD then he should not prevent genuine fans from watching the show via other methods, its being broadcast on challenge TV so it is available to the entire nation to record in their own homes if they so please,
I pay for sky and if i had the time i could have quite easily recorded these myself onto my home DVD recorder. Would that be allowed? whats the difference?
I got all series 1-8 for £15.
What with stock, labour, machine wear and tear, electricity bills, postage and all the other things, i cant imagine much profit being made on the fan made sets.
Its not about profit, its about genuine fans being able to enjoy the show, if hes releases the DVDs officially i will still buy it, but he wont, so we either make do with the home made ones or go without.
Lets be honest its hardly a state of the art top secret hollywood movie, the programme is donkeys years old and not really worth much in commercial value, sure it has a few thousand of us fans but nothing near the number required to compete with some of todays offerings!
here is the 10 DVD boxset i bought for £15 it was the best one i saw on ebay, the guy selling it was a genuine fan we had a good chat about the show turns out his brother was an actual contestant and wanted to see the show, he didnt know what series or episode so thats why he ended up recording the all the series.
You genuine fans are missing out, waiting for something which will never come!
stop trying to be heros, life is too short, you wont get an award!
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In answer to a couple of queries here:
Permission was obtained from Tim Child in 1998 to create this website and I have a letter as proof.
I'm sure he would love to have Knightmare released on DVD but it's Granada Ventures (owners of the Anglia archive) who would decide that. They have not done so as they don't think they will sell enough copies to make it viable, and it has been said before that this is partly due to tape copying.
More info is available on the FAQs at www.knightmare.com/faq.htm
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Well in my opinion i think its all rather petty to prevent people from obtaining these sets on ebay, the only people who will type in "knightmare" into ebay will be a genuine fan of the show.
I work in audio post production / restoration and from the audio side alone i know the amount of time and work involved to convert all of that old analogue footage into digital footage to meet todays DVD quality standards would mount astronomical costs! You cant even imagine how much work actually goes into DVD production of that kind.
And they are right they would certainly not sell enough units to cover thier losses.
They only ever release the entire series DVDs of really popular shows like, The A Team or (K)nightrider!
If we are very lucky we may see a "Best Of Knightmare" DVD set
which would probably be 90 mins of edited moments.
but even still that is highly unlikely.
I really cant understand why so many of you have such a negative outlook on these ebay sets, you cant buy this programme anywhere else, and the people selling them are doing all the genuine fans a service.
I think some of you are trying to take the moral highground on this, and others have just followed suit not wishing to rock the boat.
Im totally against piracy of new unreleased movies or of DVD sets that are available to purchase from shops,
but i think there is a lot of room for debate when the show is:
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not available to purchase anywhere
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never going to be released on DVD (sorry but its true)
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over 10 years old
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currently being re run on a really unpopular cable/sky channel
sorry if i sound a bit blunt but i really did love this show when i was growing up and the only people who would be interested in buying a set like this would be genuine fans like me, and without ebay i would not have been able to watch it this over this xmas holiday.
dont cut off your nose to spite your faces
all the best guys
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Well done, KM12345. Thanks for bringing attention to forumites the time involved in producing discs. I’ve done a lot of editing over the holiday, and it takes so long that sometimes I can’t be bothered. So for the Brollochan to simply assume that selling price less cost equals profit is unjust. Even unofficial productions have costs involved. Unless people resell other peoples unoffical work.
To Illusion…
It doesn’t matter if you’ve obtained permission from Tim Child. He doesn’t own the Intellectual Property to Knightmare – ITV do. Granada Ventures are merely a satellite group that deal with the merchandising of brands beyond broadcast. BUT, as Knightmare is no longer an active brand, and there are no current plans to bring Knightmare to DVD, it makes your point invalid.
Just enjoy the show, guys.
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To clarify matters, the rights to the Knightmare format reverted solely to Tim Child a couple of years ago. Granada own the right to the 'made programmes'.
Your argument is completely neutered by your use of the word 'current'. As you currently perceive it, there are no 'current' plans to bring back Knightmare to DVD. You assume that the status of the market will remain fixed. What about new, cheaper, higher-capacity media in the years to come? By doing what you are doing, you are undermining future possibilities. Also, in providing an alternative to subscribing to Challenge, you are reducing their potential audience. How well would that go down in their board room if they were ever considering commissioning the new series?
To quote the rules of this forum, "we cannot condone this activity as it is illegal and potentially could get yourself and/or the site in trouble."
That is the bottom line.
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