Book
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They really are worth reading. Well, the first four are; the later two just make me sneer
There were actually three later ones (the 'Yearling' titles they were called) - The Forbidden Gate, The Dragon's Lair, and Lord Fear's Domain. But I agree they were quite infantile, and if there's one of them you haven't read, believe me, you've missed very little.
The original line of four books was clearly superior. While still not exactly anything to challenge Tolstoy, they were a more satisfying read, and the stories were set firmly in their own era, with no links to the future - Treguard clearly had no knowledge in them of our own time.
The later books were more like episodes of the TV series in book form, with kids from the future travelling into the past to face challenges from Knightmare characters. It gave the stories a contrived feel, and were written in a very kiddie-friendly style. Whether they were meant to be part of the same continuity as the earlier books is not completely clear, although they probably were.
One interesting peculiarity in the books is the portrayal of Pickle; he is always described as being an imp. On one occasion, a character says, "You look like an elf!" to which Pickle replies, "You look like a baboon!" I don't know whether that exchange was meant to be defiance on the part of Dave Morris against the series, by insisting that Pickle is not an elf. But Pickle's personality is rather different in the stories too; he's sharper-tongued and more mischievous, and on several occasions he talks a bit like a stereotype cockney. My suspicion is that early ideas for Pickle were for an 'Artful Dodger' type persona, which wouldn't have been suitable for a Dungeon Master's assistant, and Morris wasn't told until it was too late that they were doing something different with him.
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In Dave Morris' blog he says that the publishers asked him to aim younger after the fourth book. Not surprising as the same thing was happening to CITV generally and, indeed, Knightmare. With the show it happened far more gradually of course and the tone only really jars when you watch a series 8 episode after, say, a series 2 episode.
I always feel that in any kind of drama/horror/whatever you absolutely cannot make light of the main threat - have comic relief in other ways but keep the antagonist serious. Having Lord Fear and Lissard playing Monopoly is just one of many examples of how the show broke this rule.
I really hope the new episode reverses this trend now there are no pressures to appeal to a kiddie demographic.
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That's weird. I'm sure I posted a reply to this, but if i did it vanished.
I liked the nonchalant, uncaring, funny, monopoly playing Lord Fear. To me, it always emphasises his chaos, randomness and smug arrogance. He feel so superior, or cares so little about the progress of the dungeoneer that he'd rather concentrate on his game.
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I dunno. There were times in season 5 that he seemed nervous to the point of paranoid about security. Seeing him become so casual does seem a little inexplicable.
Are we sure that the show was really becoming more kiddie-friendly though? Given the rise of moments of sexual innuendo and bad(ish) language in the last two seasons, you could well argue it was pushing in the opposite direction.
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The great thing about kids tv is that sexual innuendo can be slipped in (so to speak) for older viewers.
There was a He-Man character called Fisto, as I recall.
Anyway, I feel, in broad terms, that KM was increasingly kiddie friendly as time went on. They got rid of tricky riddles, the tone became more comic, goblins became cuddly toys with names, innovations such as the SIGHT spell did nothing but make it easier and the reach wand enabled the sort of puzzles the Early Learning Centre might sell. Oh, and Snapperjack.
By the end they were getting rid of entire levels to make it incredibly simple to win
I have of course had my opinion coloured by the fact I started watching in 1988 and was significantly older by S8.
But CITV's target audience was getting younger by that point and I think this is certainly reflected in KM.
I think we've gone off topic!
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Their are several books currently on ebay.. I tried bidding last night but i kept losing. Never read them myself, only have the board game and the computer game (horrid thing)
Lord Fear had the right balance of Horror and Humour. You can't really have one without the other or it becomes a real joke.
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I have quite a few of the books actually. I think I only ever played the adventure games and I read the forbidden gate when I was much younger. I think that one is signed by the cast.
You're lucky to have the board game. I understand that it's comparatively rare.
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Canadanne - I might be wrong but I get the feeling Dave Morris would engage with you on such queries. Might be worth asking him via Twitter or his blog...?
I suspect Dave Morris wouldn't have the answers as it was Tim Child who wrote the original story, and even he might not remember the details after so long!
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They really are worth reading. Well, the first four are; the later two just make me sneer
There were actually three later ones (the 'Yearling' titles they were called) - The Forbidden Gate, The Dragon's Lair, and Lord Fear's Domain. But I agree they were quite infantile, and if there's one of them you haven't read, believe me, you've missed very little.
I though Lord Fears Domain was just a puzzle book? That's the one I don't have. (Well, I do now, thank you Amazon and your penny books!)
The original line of four books was clearly superior. While still not exactly anything to challenge Tolstoy, they were a more satisfying read, and the stories were set firmly in their own era, with no links to the future - Treguard clearly had no knowledge in them of our own time.
Yes, they're very internally consistent and actually quite sophisticated, in their own way. Treguurd is, inevitably I suppose, a much more rounded figure. I even had to look up a couple of words, which hardly ever happens to me nowadays! ('Flensing' and 'miniver'; not bad for a kid's book
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also wouldn't mind seeing a book forum
They usually have copies on Amazon (I buy extra copies to give away to people )
They come up on eBay as well - I picked the first four books up (separately) for around a tenner total, including P&P, a couple of months back. Although that was before the new episode was announced, which may have spiked prices.
They really are worth reading. Well, the first four are; the later two just make me sneer
I don't know about the fourth. #1-3 are fairly good, but I didn't finish Sorcerer's Isle.
The original line of four books was clearly superior. While still not exactly anything to challenge Tolstoy, they were a more satisfying read, and the stories were set firmly in their own era, with no links to the future - Treguard clearly had no knowledge in them of our own time.
Which is odd in the case of the fourth. #1-3 seemed like they were set before the TV show, but by bringing in Pickle and having Treguard live in the Middle East for years (!), #4 had to be "between series" of the show.
One interesting peculiarity in the books is the portrayal of Pickle; he is always described as being an imp. On one occasion, a character says, "You look like an elf!" to which Pickle replies, "You look like a baboon!" I don't know whether that exchange was meant to be defiance on the part of Dave Morris against the series, by insisting that Pickle is not an elf.
Also, he's stored in a bottle for an extended time in book 4, ala Majida's introduction on the TV show.
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also wouldn't mind seeing a book forum
They usually have copies on Amazon (I buy extra copies to give away to people )
They come up on eBay as well - I picked the first four books up (separately) for around a tenner total, including P&P, a couple of months back. Although that was before the new episode was announced, which may have spiked prices.
I've got hold of the first book, for about a total of £2.50 on ebay.
I saw one go the other week for about £4. I'm kinda pleased because I received it in the post today and it's be pretty good condition, couldn't get much better really for it's age, I was worried they might be all bent and creased.
It's quite a long book, might take me a month to read
When I was a kid I loved those choose your own adventure book, I use to have loads of the Lone wolf series, unfortunately my teachers absolutely hated them, got to the point where they wouldn't let write book reviews on them. I thought they were a great way to get kids reading who didn't really like reading.
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Have been trying to unpick the mythology of the first novella but have given up!
My initial reading was that the Gruagach/KM Castle was indeed Hades, with the dungeon being Tartarus. Perhaps Leahra is a play on Lyra - as in the lyre of Orpheus which beguiled Hades. The city of sticks could be a play on Styx ie Treguard traveling to the underworld to gain something to defeat The Lord of the underworld.
There are also parallels between Treguard's quest to defeat the Gruagach and Perseus' quest to defeat medusa - Perseus collected a sword, mirrored shield etc.
Gruagach is a Gaelic word for a brownie or hobgoblin (in the traditional sense of small goblin rather than the Tolkien/KM sense of large goblin) and doesn't really fit with the devil-like antagonist. It is, though, associated with Northern England and the Scottish Borders.
But none of this really hangs together as a direct interpretation, though someone with a better knowledge of classical mythology and folklore might be able to come up with something! But the KM world seems to be a mish mash of Greek myths, Arthurian legend and English folklore (the Robin Hood bit!) and it's probably best just to take it on its own terms.
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Interesting observation re: City of the Sticks / Styx, HobGoblin - I hadn't thought of that!
I was trying to figure out the origin of "glaschwights", as Google comes up with zero results that aren't related to this book. The nearest I could find was that Glaschú is the Gaelic name for Glasgow... are they Scottish ghosts??
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Treguard slaying a dragon must be an obvious connection to the St Geroge myth I suppose.
But I was surprised to read about Robin Hood in the book, and more surprised they didn't have him in the series itself with season 4 and 5 taking place outside in the woods quite often,
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I was under the impression that John Woodnutt was unable to continue playing the roles for health reasons, after which he sadly passed away. I've not heard of those characters being axed for any reason other than Woodnutt simply not being available, so this is news to me.
I've never heard that he left for health reasons, and he continued acting for another decade after leaving Knightmare, so it seems unlikely. The only explanation I've ever seen is the one quoted by HStorm, from Tim Child's History of Knightmare. ("The Merlin/Mogdred scenario was exhausted (in any case I had always found it annoyingly derivative) and I was convinced that the drama game engine of Knightmare must be driven by a really solid baddy.")
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