Series 2 - Episode 7
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After last weekend's voiceover debacle, I was hoping that the Challenge continuity announcer for the Series 2 Episode 7 showings would be fresh out of mime school. No such luck. And my response to his ramblings during the Fun House closing credits, in which he mentioned holograms for some reason, could be rhymed with "What the muck are you walking about?"
Team 2, series 1 was a long time ago now with these once a week episodes.
It was shown again last Wednesday and Thursday as part of the weekday morning repeats.
Like David "Jock" Campbell, whose quest was also repeated a few days ago, Akash is one of the few dungeoneers to have a nickname: Ackle. His advisors, though, won't win an accolade for their Ackle aid. Was (Not Was) might have said:
Doom doom Ackle Ackle Ackle doom, doom doom Ackle Ackle room doom
And we know what Billy Joel would have said:
Won't get too far if you have no ice pack-ack-ack-ack-ak-Akash
Despite having no ice, the team ended up on the rocks. And while the Troll had missed his breakfast, Lillith went for dessert: she made Ackle crumble. I learnt a new word when she called him a greenhorn (though I can't make out the word before: kindless? guileless?). After that scene was originally shown on Children's ITV, several complaints were received from deeply offended viewers with green horns. This is, of course, a total untruth.
It feels like stating the obvious but I believe this was the only episode in which Treguard broke the fourth wall mid-quest to mock a team.
I do think that first riddle was very hard even by KM standards
The wording wasn't straightforward but I'm confident I knew the story of King Alfred and the tide when I was a good few years younger than they were. In terms of pre-Norman royal general knowledge, it's up there with the story of King Canute burning the cakes. Having said that, Treguard could easily have given them a clue for the second or third riddle, as he did with so many other teams, if the voice in his ear had bidden him to.
Hehe, just seen Akash's advisor Tania on Twitter, presumably watching their quest! She says it wasn't restarted.
If the quest wasn't restarted then it seems mighty convenient that they were given that truth spell. A spell that, to my knowledge, never appears again, to solve a problem that, also to my knowledge, never arises again.
Perhaps she's just being careful with her words. The quest wasn't restarted, but it was tinkered with.
Maybe we should invite her to come to the forum, away from the ruthlessness of the live-tweeters, to give her side of things. That's what Andrea from Team 5 of Series 5 did, and it shed a lot of light on what was otherwise a misunderstood team. It's also possible that Tom Hunt might remember any unusual decisions made during filming of this quest.
Personally, I reckon that time travel explains it. But then when it comes to Knightmare, I always reckon that time travel explains it. Maybe the Challenge announcer did know what he was talking about when he connected holograms to Knightmare after all.
The next team were the first to choose their quest object and one of the few to choose from three objects rather than two or four. Interesting how the Sword and Shield swapped characteristics over time, later becoming known as the Sword of Freedom and Shield of Justice.
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I wasn't sure if they gave them a Truth spell to make sure they got at least one correct, maybe being all girls the production team thought they might not be as good? (But a wall monster eating a dungenner would be cool, other than the blocker later series)
I'm all but certain assumptions of that nature simply wouldn't have been made, after all it would have been borderline sexism, that makes little sense when you consider that (during that period of time) on average girls out-performed boys at school. I managed to somehow be in set 1 in all my school classes, and apart from a handful of the same male faces those classes consisted primarily of girls
If we're going to assume the "TRUTH" spell was a unique but legitimate and planned feature of that team's Level 1, there are two possibilities as far as I can see:
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The spell was intended for use later in the dungeon. The troll did say that misuse of the spell would be dangerous, but it's difficult to imagine how a spell with a name such as "TRUTH" could be dangerous in any way. Perhaps a later room required the use of the spell to pass safely, meaning that the team would have failed their quest if they made it to that point, even if they'd taken the ice pack for Lillith.
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A wall monster was being used to it's fullest here. As we know a team has to answer three riddles, the outcome differing depending on how many correct answers were given.
One correct answer allows the dungeoneer to pass, no real clues are given beside the occasional statement of the quest object; though most teams could usually use a combination of their wits, logic, luck and the Adventurer's Code to pick the correct two clue objects to pass the obstacles ahead.
Two correct answers grants the team a cryptic clue; these clues are usually fairly obvious (but not always), and usually help point out one correct clue item, one clue item to be avoided or sometimes both. This clue is normally all that's required, because if the Adventurer's Code is followed the proper two clue objects are usually abundantly clear.
Three correct answers is the tricky one: the team may command the wall monster, and this can result in anything from a clue-object clue that practically states which two objects to take, to being granted a spell.
It's worth noting that no team was ever seen getting every answer wrong. This may be the cause of the controversy, since every team has managed at least one correct answer and either passed or failed the level based on the particular clue objects they decided to take. Since the answers given to the wall monster don't affect which items are available, even with no clues at all there is still a possibility the team might take two correct items - especially if there is a dagger or other blatant object to be avoided among the choices.
So it all hinges on what exactly was intended to happen at the three correct answers stage. Since it was rare (but not exactly unheard of) for all three answers to be given correctly, the reward for three correct answers wasn't usually anything particularly vital - a bonus clue that wasn't absolutely necessary though helpful nonetheless being the normal reward.
What if the team were in a scripted Level 1 which absolutely hinged on being granted a spell, and the spell being granted to them by a wall monster? Just for once, the three correct answers would be vital. Since that's almost too difficult a requirement for Level 1, their chances of pulling off such a feat will have needed to be improved - hence the "TRUTH" spell.
The majority of teams, when confronted with a wall monster, managed two correct answers out of three to the point where it was the general expected result. Most teams struggled with at least one riddle, and the "TRUTH" spell may very well have existed to essentially remove that one tricky riddle from the table, and essentially act as a lifeline in maintaining a perfect score.
The controversy is expedited by the team's inability to answer the first riddle correctly, at which point the "TRUTH" spell was used. Had the team correctly managed the first riddle, but used the spell for either the second or the third then we'd have had some indication that the spell was intended, not to guarantee the team the ability to survive the chamber, but to work towards a difficult to obtain reward that in this case could have been more vital than usual.
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What if the team were in a scripted Level 1 which absolutely hinged on being granted a spell, and the spell being granted to them by a wall monster? Just for once, the three correct answers would be vital. Since that's almost too difficult a requirement for Level 1, their chances of pulling off such a feat will have needed to be improved - hence the "TRUTH" spell.
This idea still doesn't get past the air of coincidence though. The only team that couldn't get any riddles right 'just happens' to be the team that got a generic spell that can be used as a substitute for a correct answer. Given the way quests were usually scripted fairly tightly, spells tended to be given out with a view to what was going to happen later, which is fine i.e. they're really a possible 'third clue object'. But how did the production team know that the team wouldn't get any answers right at all?
To put it down just to a big slice of luck is... well, it's possible, but it's just a bit difficult to swallow.
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The section under Akash's team on the website says this:
This quest was unusual as it was the only quest in Series 2 that did not start with the Wheel of Fate. It is believed that this team may have had their quest restarted to enable them to get the TRUTH spell from the Troll and guarantee themselves at least one correct answer in the clue room, though this is unconfirmed.
I was under the impression that (perhaps from the above and/or maybe from reading something else too) the team got to the clue room and didn't get any riddles right. I'm guessing that either because the production team didn't have a "wall monster eating dungeoneer" effect or that the next team wasn't ready yet, they decided to let the team live on. So, they went back and filmed the giant scene later on in which he gives them the TRUTH spell, and they also re-film the necessary parts of the clue room scene.
At the same time it would have been a lot more subtle of them to re-film the clue room scene with either a different riddle or having told the team the correct answer, if they were going to let the team live anyway.
Maybe they opted for the TRUTH spell scenario instead as it was interesting and different to anything that had been done before.
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What if the team were in a scripted Level 1 which absolutely hinged on being granted a spell, and the spell being granted to them by a wall monster? Just for once, the three correct answers would be vital. Since that's almost too difficult a requirement for Level 1, their chances of pulling off such a feat will have needed to be improved - hence the "TRUTH" spell.
This idea still doesn't get past the air of coincidence though. The only team that couldn't get any riddles right 'just happens' to be the team that got a generic spell that can be used as a substitute for a correct answer. Given the way quests were usually scripted fairly tightly, spells tended to be given out with a view to what was going to happen later, which is fine i.e. they're really a possible 'third clue object'. But how did the production team know that the team wouldn't get any answers right at all?
To put it down just to a big slice of luck is... well, it's possible, but it's just a bit difficult to swallow.
I totally see the coincidence that could have played out and why it looks, on the face of it, unlikely. I posted earlier about other reasons why I suspect the start of that quest to be quite fishy, I'm simply trying to be open to all possibilities.
Knightmare is certainly no stranger to coincidence and sheer luck. There are plenty of times where fluke or destiny results in an outcome that was far better than the one anticipated by the production team, and these situations can often appear fishy when they're not.
You only have to look as far as the final team of Series 1 losing the game at absolutely the best possible point. That situation was completely unplanned or coaxed by the production team, yet still managed to happen... exactly where it needed to.
Sheer luck and coincidence can't be ruled out. That particular quest does look decidedly fishy, but both the "TRUTH" spell being used by the one team that may have gotten all three answers incorrect, and the bomb room appearing (and the response by Treguard) in the same quest that could easily have been failed right from the start (if the team chose the "FIRE EXIT" door) conspire to make me suspicious, but I guess that's all part of the magic of Knightmare
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The section under Akash's team on the website says this:
I was under the impression that (perhaps from the above and/or maybe from reading something else too) the team got to the clue room and didn't get any riddles right. I'm guessing that either because the production team didn't have a "wall monster eating dungeoneer" effect or that the next team wasn't ready yet, they decided to let the team live on. So, they went back and filmed the giant scene later on in which he gives them the TRUTH spell, and they also re-film the necessary parts of the clue room scene.
At the same time it would have been a lot more subtle of them to re-film the clue room scene with either a different riddle or having told the team the correct answer, if they were going to let the team live anyway.
Maybe they opted for the TRUTH spell scenario instead as it was interesting and different to anything that had been done before.
This would sound like a decent reason to re-start the quest. Plus the technology might not have been there to do a wall eating monster.
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You only have to look as far as the final team of Series 1 losing the game at absolutely the best possible point. That situation was completely unplanned or coaxed by the production team, yet still managed to happen... exactly where it needed to.
I've long suspected that that was the result of ruthless editing rather than coincidence though. That team were awarded two spells by Merlin (at what should have been) midway through level two. But the end of the level was almost immediately ahead, and the spells were never mentioned again. It looks pretty likely that a number of chambers, probably three or four, were simply cut from the final edit to fit inside the running time.
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OOOOOOOOOOH NAAAAASTY one f Treguards best renditions here,yes we had a a party to celebrate this most horrific but laugh every minute quest, it was as if they didn't know what show they were on, maybe they applied for give us a clue they might have done better!!!!
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The other possible use of the TRUTH spell could be to reveal the correct door or to be use with Mildred. (I don't recall Lilith and Mildred appearing in the same quest)
Did other spells have possible two uses?
Wouldn't the smart thing to do would save the TRUTH spell for the last riddle, they might have gotten at least one right.
While we didn't see the Wheel of Fortune it doesn't mean it wasn't filmed and cut for time. Really hope this mystery can be solved at some point.
They wouldn't need a 'wall monster feeding' graphic, they would have just put a decaying life force on screen.
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Wouldn't the smart thing to do would save the TRUTH spell for the last riddle, they might have gotten at least one right.
While we didn't see the Wheel of Fortune it doesn't mean it wasn't filmed and cut for time. Really hope this mystery can be solved at some point.
Yes I would have thought it made more sense to use the TRUTH spell on the 3rd riddle but at the same time I still say the spell was meant for something else in the first place.
The producers might have edited the start of Akash's quest if they had to start again. So if the team did originally start off at the wheel of fortune, the producers would have had to cut this from the final edit. I guess time might have been an issue and certain parts of their quest were edited to fit things in.
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Perhaps they would have died later on with Tregaurd pointing out they shouldn't have wasted the Truth spell on a riddle. I do like this idea Spells can be used in various situations and the teams have to pick when to use it.
Mildred is the only place I can think of, she was known to try and fool the teams with fake wells, voices or change he appearance. But as I say I don't think she and Lilith ever appeared in the same quest.
If the team say they didn't re-start the quest then we can only take their word for it.
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Can anyone explain to me the facial structure of a toadodile? I find them very confusing to look at. What are those red things that stick out every so often? I can't tell if they're supposed to be teeth, spines, flames, a forked tongue, or something else entirely!
On an unrelated note, I've only just noticed that Neil's Wheel of Fate includes a room that was never used in any quest - a back-to-front version of the giant's cave, with an entirely straight path. (I had also never noticed that the fire cave is just a reflected version of the giant's cave, so that big stone monster in the middle was an accidental design!)
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The Fire Cave is the cavern with a ledge running around the outside on three walls. There are cracks in the ledge, and blasts of flame sporadically burst through them. They come from the nostrils of a statue of a salamander that appears in the centre of the remaining wall.
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It's the chamber in this credits sequence; -
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Akash and chums are very strong candidates for the worst team ever. The TRUTH spell was clearly awarded to avoid the difficulty of a zero score in the clue room. The coincidence is otherwise just too great.
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Akash and chums are very strong candidates for the worst team ever. The TRUTH spell was clearly awarded to avoid the difficulty of a zero score in the clue room. The coincidence is otherwise just too great.
I just replied to this, but was told to log-in after posting, and couldn't get my work back. >:D
I tried to say that Akash team was very poor, but the ones that came after weren't much better, I watched tonight.
I don't remember a 'truth' spell, that enabled you to bypass wall monsters or avoid killings with incorrect answers, but it's been a very long time since I watched the original episodes in the 1980s. Only been watching the repeats on challenge for a few weeks now.
Got a lot of catching up to do.
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must watch this episode before tonight's ep as i was away last weekend, it was a fun quest because they were well,, so stupid i mean if they can't spell then what's the point i actually wish Mogdred got rid of them there and then would have been much better.
The clue room was too generous as well really I suppose we'd already had 2 level 2 deaths a third would have well made the series a bit more boring. I didn't like the ledge room u never knew what/who would be there and this time it was Mogdred
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I really don't think they should (shuld? :p) have been allowed to get past Mogred.
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