Series 2 - Episode 10
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All the teams in Series 1 were warned about taking weapons, and every version of the Adventurer's Code that we've seen includes that rule, so I'd be pretty surprised if it was absent from Series 2.
The thing about warning the teams in series 1 is that, as I say, it's quite probably that the series 2 teams won't even have seen it.
The adventurer's code is what I find interesting, though.
Is it something that was there, in its original form, and given to teams, even in series 1 or 2?
My suspicion is not. For example, I believe the bit about not being able to take clue objects between levels was designed to work with their split-level-story system, which was only introduced later. Certainly, it was amended in series 8 to include mention of the shortcut.
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I would find it weird if the code was in the 1988 book but not in the series. Or does this mean Dave Morris wrote the code and subsequently had a large impact on the future gameplay of knightmare? This seems more unlikely...
But I find it v hard to believe that many of the teams had never seen the show before! Surely they applied because they were fans? I can understand a team member or two not being overly familiar with the show but not all four of them...
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I would find it weird if the code was in the 1988 book but not in the series. Or does this mean Dave Morris wrote the code and subsequently had a large impact on the future gameplay of knightmare? This seems more unlikely...
The difference is that a book has no DM (as in, a rules arbiter), nor any sense or need to make a thrilling story (show). A book also can't easily maintain state. It's very difficult for a book to "give you one chance" in the same way that Knightmare can. Consequently, a book needs a concrete set of rules that the player must follow. The show can be a little more flexible.
So I can imagine it's possible that the book had them first.
However, wasn't Tim actually a (silent) co-writer of the books?
But I find it v hard to believe that many of the teams had never seen the show before! Surely they applied because they were fans? I can understand a team member or two not being overly familiar with the show but not all four of them...
I'm sure some had. I understand many hadn't.
Apparently the tougher interview process was also brought in, partly to try and filter such people out
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I'm sure I've seen Tim Child saying somewhere that if teams forgot about good being on the right then they'd be thrown into a bomb room to sharpen them up. This suggests an off screen code in the early series.
Also, wasn't the code explicitly mentioned in S1?
I believe Tim did co write the 1988 book. It seems more likely to me that Dave Morris had to incorporate Tim's show rules into the game section rather than the book rules being adopted for the TV show in later years. If they were designed for the book out of necessity and the show didnt need them why would this have happened?
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The thing about warning the teams in series 1 is that, as I say, it's quite probably that the series 2 teams won't even have seen it.
The adventurer's code is what I find interesting, though.
Is it something that was there, in its original form, and given to teams, even in series 1 or 2?
We've had this conversation earlier in the thread - it was stated in Series 1 that teams had read the Adventurer's Code before starting their quests. I see absolutely nothing to suggest that it didn't include the weapons rule from the beginning; everything in the programme is consistent with that rule being in place. Is there any particular reason why you doubt it?
Dave Morris has said on Twitter that Tim Child wrote the gamebook section of the first book.
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I guess only teams from the 1st 2 series knows for sure whether the adventurers code included the weapons rule. And I mean weapons being used against enemies. I don't know what episode it was but when Treguard dismissed a team, he then mentioned if you carry the weapons of your enemies you are likely to fail (or something to that effect). This would then make it a bit contridicting if a team was advised to take a weapon as part of 2 items they could take.
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it was stated in Series 1 that teams had read the Adventurer's Code before starting their quests.
My problem is that the same quote also refers to the "rules of ritual", which, as far as I'm aware, nobody has ever seen.
Isn't it possible, therefore, that the adventurer's code and the rules of ritual were only turned into a formalised, written set of rules after this point in time? That Treguard's reference to having read these is part of the narrative form of the show, in the same way that the first dungeoneer wants to "become a knight"?
I see absolutely nothing to suggest that it didn't include the weapons rule from the beginning; everything in the programme is consistent with that rule being in place.
Well, my above point notwithstanding, the weapons rule seems to have changed over time from:
"use the magic or the weapons of your enemies with care"
to
"Beware the weapons of your enemies. Unless otherwise indicated, it may be best to assume that all weapons discovered fall into this category"
These rules are actually very different. The former rule does not appear to prohibit the picking up, or even the use of weapons unless those weapons are of your enemy. Even then, you're allowed to use them, albeit cautiously.
Is there any particular reason why you doubt it?
To be clear, I have no real opinion.
However, I'm always nervous about the ex post facto analysis of the actions of the production team such as the application of the game rules. In practice, we're in possession of so few facts about what was a varying, complex and highly subjective process.
I'm therefore just playing devil's advocate and making sure people have considered every angle
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My problem is that the same quote also refers to the "rules of ritual", which, as far as I'm aware, nobody has ever seen.
I took "the rules of ritual" to be the other instructions that accompanied the Adventurer's Code (the rituals for spellcasting, etc).
Well, my above point notwithstanding, the weapons rule seems to have changed over time from:
"use the magic or the weapons of your enemies with care"
to
"Beware the weapons of your enemies. Unless otherwise indicated, it may be best to assume that all weapons discovered fall into this category"
These rules are actually very different. The former rule does not appear to prohibit the picking up, or even the use of weapons unless those weapons are of your enemy. Even then, you're allowed to use them, albeit cautiously.
"Use weapons with care" seems to me just a shorter way of saying "Use them only if you've been told it's OK" (Treguard is reminding them of the rules but not reciting them in full because they're supposed to have read them already), but if you interpret it differently, there's nothing more I can say. Perhaps Tim can clarify next time he's on here.
I agree it would be interesting to obtain copies of the Adventurer's Code from different series, to see which items were added/changed over time and which remained the same.
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the Adventurer's Code was certainly mentioned in series 1, and I think the weapon rule has always been in place.
And I'm sure teams had seen the show before, a recent team described as room as being 'the clue room' so they must have been episode before hand. The teams on series two I'm sure would have watched series 1.. hence they applied to be on the show.
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And I'm sure teams had seen the show before, a recent team described as room as being 'the clue room' so they must have been episode before hand. The teams on series two I'm sure would have watched series 1.. hence they applied to be on the show.
As I said:
I'm sure some had. I understand many hadn't.
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Another memorable episode.
Team 8 were certainly given the hurry-up by the mechanical warrior in the well room.
The first team to agree to serve Mogdred. Possibly their quest was doomed as soon as they did.
Were they the only team ever to do this? I don't remember any other.
Why did they choose that silly dagger? Unlike the previous team, they were not given any reason to take it.
An amusing moment with Olaf being attacked by (invisible) angry bees.
Really liked their demise, in an empty 4-exit chamber, stuck in a kind of loop-of-infinity, until life force ran out.... Presumably without the divining-rod they were in "losing status" and it wouldn't have mattered which exit they tried.
What a pity they didn't try Mogdred's "POWER" spell in their desperation. It wouldn't have done any good, but at least we would have seen what happened.
Rather like team 5, their quest was fairly low-key but had a memorable ending.
Team 9 started steadily. I think the fuse on that bomb got stuck....
Got 3/3 against Igneous, altho had some heavy hints from Treguard.
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Why did they choose that silly dagger? Unlike the previous team, they were not given any reason to take it.
Daggers in consecutive quests. I'd never picked up on that before. There's nothing like a watch-through for noticing trends. Thanks and keep up the good the work!
This variation may be why, in the next series, dungeoneer Scott decided it was worth checking a dagger for markings. It's one of my favourite displays of dungeoneer initiative.
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Thanks, i will look out for that when i move on to series 3.
The final team in series 1 examined their level 3 clue objects extra carefully. It was impressive that they were being so thorough. On that occasion it didn't stop them from making the wrong choice, but generally attention to detail was a sign of a good team.
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The first team to agree to serve Mogdred. Possibly their quest was doomed as soon as they did.
Were they the only team ever to do this? I don't remember any other.
Yes, they were the only team to 'do-an-Anakin-Skywalker,' so to speak. Team 4 in season 3 were given a spell by Mogdred as well - called GLORY - but he never offered them an agreement to serve him, he just gave them the spell unsolicited, and the team were clearly set at all times not to cast it. That's the closest anyone else came to it, unless you count the 'find-and-fetch' bargains Malice would strike with dungeoneers at the start of quests in season 4. Curious how those deals were never penalised as 'arming-with-the-weapons-of-your-enemies', but then when she demanded allegiance in Level 3, it was almost certainly going to be treated the way Stuart was here. It's also interesting that Lord Fear never tried to corrupt the dungeoneers, but I suppose by the time he arrived, the production team were assuming that everyone had already realised that the dungeoneers should always decline.
Why did they choose that silly dagger?
The likeliest explanation I can think of is that they didn't seem to realise what the divining rod was supposed to be, and thought it was just an ordinary stick. They might even have assumed therefore that it counted as another weapon, and probably a less useful one than the dagger.
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"Those who arm themselves with the weapons of their enemies are ever likely to fail." Treguard's closing remarks at the end of Stuart's quest possibly refer to two choices the team made, not just one. Explicitly, they're a reference to the dagger they took from the Level Two Clue Room (yet again, your dungeoneer can't see to fight, so why bother with an offensive weapon when you've been given no clue that you should take it?) but implicitly it may also be a reference to the 'deal-with-the-devil' they struck. Even had the team found a way past the Dungeon Roundabout, they were almost certainly going to lose anyway, especially if they cast the spell Mogdred gave them. It's quite obvious that making a deal with Mogdred defeats the whole object of the game - if it's a quest for truth and justice, why do a deal with some tyrannical megalomaniac who, far from championing truth, appears determined to silence anyone who might give the dungeoneer advice contrary to his own e.g Treguard.
Good point. I assumed that Treguard referred to their pact with Mogdred, but yes, it does also apply to their selection of that silly dagger.
Notable that they immediately agreed to serve Mogdred. (Some teams had a few moments of doubt before refusing him, but this lot didn't even seem to consider the possibility.)
However, their reaction when Treguard questioned them about what Mogdred had said/done was telling. The advisors all looked rather guilty and none of them seemed to want to admit that they had agreed to serve Mogdred.
"Dark magic has no unpleasant side-effects." Yeah right, Mogdred. I wish that they had cast his spell, just so we could have seen it's (inevitably unpleasant) effect.
Incredibly, altho it was the obvious red-herring, the dagger actually seemed to be their top choice object as they originally chose that & the "stick", before changing their minds and going for dagger & honeypot.
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