When Did Knightmare "Jump The Shark" For You?
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The trouble is that jumping the shark refers to a single moment and shows don’t often suddenly become completely different in tone or focus
They do in my experience, usually due to a change in writer / producer, departure of a key character, or introduction of a new character that changes everything.
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Just read David's response to my article.
Firstly, a very entertaining read (as all David's posts are) and full of valid points.
Thank you, Chris. It's the lack of a single correct answer that makes this a worthwhile discussion, so maybe someone will contribute a third article in time.
For reference, Chris' article is here and mine is here.
Hobgoblin, you make an interesting point about not intending "jumping the shark" to be synonymous with "became rubbish".
Although I had always made this connection, now that you mention it, I suppose that it's not entirely true. I think it was supposed to represent the point at which the writing became so unrealistic as to be ridiculous, i.e. the writing became lazy.
In any case, I'm curious as to how you define it
and same question to Drassil.
Jumping the shark is a convenient term but it is indeed possible to misuse it. In my experience, the general sense of a programme's irredeemable decline can be felt at the time, but associating that with a particular moment is more easily done in retrospect, especially after the series has ended. I don't actually remember how I felt in 1993 when I first watched the SIGHT spell being cast, but then I hadn't heard of the concept of jumping the shark in 1993 either.
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I don't think it did, at all technology chnged so did KM however series 8 was totally different and whilst i really enjoy it now, it might have been a bit much graphics and character wise changes the graphics would have been enough and maybe fewer less characters in it would have been whoah for the viewers
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Well as I kid I probably didn't start watching until series 4, or 5 (they're quite similar) at least that my early memory of it back then.. and so the eye shield to me was just the norm, part of the show and i can't imaging it without it to be honest.
Certainly did not decline in quality that's for sure.
Season 8 might have been the weakest, i didn't like the reach want, the hew helmet was a bit rubbish, the life force pie was naff, and the season was far too short. But even still it was nice having it back inside the dungeon.
I think KM left the air before it was past it's sell by date.
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Drassil wrote:
It's the lack of a single correct answer that makes this a worthwhile discussion, so maybe someone will contribute a third article in time.
I suppose what we really need is someone defending the eye shield or at least explaining why they think the show got better after S3 - judging by the FB comments these people exist!
Wombstar wrote:
the eye shield to me was just the norm, part of the show and i can't imaging it without it to be honest.
So out of interest - how are you finding watching S1/2 in comparison to the later series?
I often wonder how I'd feel about KM if I started watching at S4. I'm pretty sure I'd have really liked it but would it have the special place in my heart it now does? The fact is that if KM got cancelled after S3 I'd still be here on this forum chewing the fat about the best show of all time!
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I like the early series, I seen them several times, but my association with knightmare was always with the eye shields and lord fear.. as a kid I didn't know it any other way.. (at least I don't remember seeing them) So when I watch the early stuff it doesn't feel like 'home'
Only thing I really disliked about the later ones was the dragon.. the rides just took forever.
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For me, the replacement of Pickle with Majida was the moment when Knightmare jumped the shark. I felt that Pickle and Treguard was a perfect combination whereas I found Majida overbearing and felt that she altered the dynamic in the ante-chamber. I don't want to upset any Majida fans though - it's just a personal opinion!
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"When did Knightmare jump the shark"?
For me, this is a no-brainer. When I was 14 I saw the shark being jumped right before my eyes and I was very disappointed. It happened in series 4 when they suddenly went from using beautiful, atmospheric painted backdrops to instead using…
ARTIFICIALLY-COLOURED PHOTOS (I presume they were photos, though the quality was so poor it wouldn't surprise me if they were interlaced video stills).
All at once, the series went from beautiful to ugly. It went from exciting rooms you wanted to explore, to inhospitable rooms that just looked disgusting and (no pun intended) "nightmarish". And to be more specific, I will give you 6 exact reasons why I hated the photos…
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To me, it looked REALLY cheap and obviously done to save money.
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Using real photos completely removed all the sense of fantasy. It just looked grotty and imperfect. All the romance was gone.
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The illustrations had always been beautifully lit, making them look dynamic and exciting. But the real-world locations (especially outdoor ones) were just plain and looked totally "flat".
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While rooms had traditionally had natural, earthy colours, they were replaced with weird, unnatural colours (ie a LOT of purple). Yes, series 3 had started to use more vivid colours here and there, but it still always looked like you were on planet earth. When we get to series 4 though, suddenly everything was purple and looked like an alien world.
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The images also looked "unnatural" in a different sense, not because of the choice of colours, but the way the photos had been altered. Now with a lot of care and skill it is possible to turn a photo of a castle purple and make it still look natural and realistic. However, when you do this crudely (and I'm not blaming the designer as I'm sure resources were limited) you just end up with something that looks artificial. It just looks like a bad effect.
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Finally, the way the colour had been digitally changed drastically reduced the quality of the image. They used limited palettes, resulting in HEAVY loss of detail, colour banding, and general "murkiness". It just looked incredibly cheap and nasty, even to my 14-year-old eyes (and I dare say the eyes of most viewers).
I LIKED THE DWARF TUNNELS
Now for the record, I must say the dwarf tunnels (and mine cart) in series 3 never bothered me in the slightest, in fact I really liked them. So why did I like dwarf tunnels? My reasons are:
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I adored the use of sound effect and music in them. It was incredibly atmospheric, and when they were first introduced I found them VERY exciting.
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They were not "the actual game", just brief interludes to give a little variety and relief between rooms. (Had they played a larger part, I might have started to find them objectionable.)
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They may not have been David Rowe illustrations, but they were still "computer illustrations" of a kind—as opposed to grotty real-life imagery.
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The dwarf tunnels were visually attractive: clean, clear, and not washed out. They may not have used "natural tones" but at least the colours didn't look false.
So for me there was a definitive point when Knightmare really went downhill, and that was series 4. I am not saying I don't like the series after this, of course not. But the photos really spoilt it for me.
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Well nothing will beat proper painted backgrounds in my opinion.
The photographs, and the more updated CG rooms in later years were always weak points to a degree.. it made things even less believable.
But it made up for it with cool characters, interesting story lines and some awesome puzzles.
I was never a huge fan of the exterior locations.
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I think every series had it's flaws so I don't think Knightmare jumped the shark but series 8 seemed to go back to the early series and for me went full circle. I did like David's illustrations but also liked some of the rooms used in later series and the dwarf tunnels were better in series 6. More realistic and more scary I thought.
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The out door backdrops were hit and miss, some of the shots worked well and they created an ambient feel, others looked like bland English Heritage post cards on acid.
The show had a very good innings, 7 or 8 years is a mini eternity when your a kid, there were natural highs and lows, my interest levels varied, but with each series having something to offer.
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I was never a fan of the dwarf tunnels. For me personally they didn't add any suspense and just interrupted the flow of play.
Have to agree on the painted backdrops - definitely the most atmospheric sets that were used - and striking works of art.
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As someone who's first exposure to Knightmare was with Season 4 and who didn't see Series 3 till repeats on the Sci-Fi Channel and only saw series 1&2 much later still with their original run on Challenge TV, I do feel I have to mount some kind of defense of the later seasons.
(Well save for series 8 which as a whole, individual parts are fine, is indefensible )
I'll try and deal with all the issues that have been raised at different points in this thread in regard to Series 4 and onwards.
Issue 1, The Eyesheild/Outdoor scenes:
Lets deal with one of the biggest ones first the Outdoor scenes and The Eyesheild. Yes there a departure from the first three seasons, yes and argument could be made they diminish the sense of fear that the show had (I disagree but I'll come to that in a moment.)But I don't think they were all that bad that they could be called a 'jumping the shark moment.'
The Eyesheild and its sequences were annoying, without a doubt, Ill say that right off the bat I don't think the production team managed to make them palatable till series 6 onwards they did at times seriously disrupt game flow and were dull to watch but then again so were the dwarf tunnels sequences in Series 3 (IMO.) It was an experiment that for what ever reason stuck around and became synonymous with Knightmare that it was hard not to think of it without thinking of The Eyesheild. (That said I was glad not to see it make a return in the Geek Week episode )
As for the outdoor scenes I don't think they detracted from the show in anyway. We knew from the outset that the Dungeon was magical in nature so to learn in Series 4 that its influence had spread beyond the confines of Dunselhelm Castle into other Castles, areas and realms isn't that much of a leap. The Dungeoneer still has to survive this new realm in order to triumph at the end and there is still the threat of death at any moment due to a mistake.
Doesn't really (I don't think) make much of a difference if that threat is due to not being able to get past Gumboil or Gibbet due to failure to gain knowledge from Granitas or because the Team hasn't got the right Causeway combination or they have made the wrong trade with Julius Scaramounger all that's changed is the setting is now not a dungeon room but say the streets of Wolfenden...the overall threat that death is just around the corner remained the setting was just different.
Issue 2, No longer claustrophobic = not as scary :
This seems to be a frequent complaint/issue/gripe with Series 4-7 that because there not just confined the a dungeon setting its somehow less scary.
I would argue its just a different type of fear that the production team were trying to instill in the teams and viewers. Instead of the claustrophobic one of series 1-3 (And it could be claimed to some extent Series 4-7 to me seem to play more towards inducing fear from the fact that the dungeoneer was constantly being pursued almost from the moment the quest started by Lord Fear's minions; Skarkill or Raptor (much as I loathe that character) with the Goblins, Sylvester Hands, The Dreadnought and later the Red Dragon Bhal-Sheba.
Also added to this the fact that Lord Fear was constantly setting traps like causeways and blockers to catch out the Dungeoneer creates (IMO) an atmosphere that could be just as frighting as the claustrophobic one of the earlier seasons...just a different type of fear.
Issue 3, Treguard becoming less sinister:
....Yeah I'll not argue on this one I much prefer the slight more ambiguous Treguard to the one we see later on especially Series 7-8.
Issue 4, Storyline vs Original Format:
Now I don't think either style of Knightmare the Series 1-3 one or the Series 4-8 one is better then the other I truly don't.
BUT
If I really had to pick one or the other I would pick the later seasons and the reason for this is I find the characters and the settings they are in (and by extension the quests of the Dungeoneers) to be far more engaging. I love the little hints of a 'bigger story' that really start to creep in more frequently with series 4.
eg. Gundrada being on a quest of her own that just happens to have brought her into the Knightmare realm.
Malice's alluding to a power struggle going on behind the scenes of The Opposition.
Lord Fear and other's mentions of The Grimwold Family post series 3.
The talked about but never seen Count Brinkatore
Places like The Great Snake Pit that were mentioned but never seen.
The implication that it was Gwendoline that cost Skarkill his eye and of a continuing rivalry between them as a result.
These kind of things fired my imagination as a child watching Knightmare and still do to this day, far more then the majority of things from the first three seasons do (Not saying nothing from series 1-3 hasn't fried my imagination or entertaining me just not as much as the later seasons)
I also like how some characters even had there own personal storylines for example Julius Scaramounger.
I love that you can trace his story from beginning to end starting from the first episode of series 5 as the dungeon realms premier (if rather dodgy) trader and merchant right through his strengthening links with Lord Fear and The Opposition as the series progresses. To the start of the end for him when Ah Wok arrives in episode 1 of Series 6, through Julius becoming a fully fledged Opposition minion with his attempt to have Ah Wok killed and his deep involvement in the Red Death plot right up till the very end of his story when he is left a broken, penniless and washed up drunk in the penultimate episode of series 6.
Now this never really happened in the early seasons Gumboil kind of had a similar ending but with him it just kind of....happened one moment he was a dangerous if not to bright dungeon villain...next he's a washed up drunk...there was no between as to how this happened.
There I think I've answered all the issues...if I've missed any please let me know and also please let me know if you disagree with me on any of the points I've made after all this is simply my opinion on the matter.
Oh and as for if and when I think Knightmare 'jumped the shark'...well I don't really think it did per say but the one change to the shows format I could NEVER abide because it to me it went against one of the key factors of the show, was the introduction in Series 7 of 'Seeing Eye Spells.'
The Dungeoneer should NEVER be able to see for any reason period.
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One comment from me- it never did, but i must admit i was dissapointed in the rushed end of series 8, that last team could have had a special mission, i actually really like series 8, good graphics, new characters, snapper jack was one of my favourites, new puzzles, fire ball room coming back as did play your cards wrong as i call it, it moved on substantially, the only thing was level 1 looked a bit samey room wise level 3 was something different, spooky,plus the storylines were well embedded to make level 2 a do right or die kinda quest again,
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One comment from me- it never did, but i must admit i was dissapointed in the rushed end of series 8
That's true, but then after having a big finale for series 6 and 7 I guess it made a change to just let this one run out. Quite fitting really as it was the finial ever episode. For now.
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Interesting thread.
I started watching in Series 3 and that remains my favourite, but maybe that’s just nostalgia.
For me Knightmare jumped the shark when the lifeforce became a pie with a slice or two taken out of it. The pulsating sequence of, was it serious 1-6?, which ended with a scary skull image at the end of a quest, was then watered down to the skeleton with bits falling off, and then just a photo of a pie.
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For me Knightmare jumped the shark when the lifeforce became a pie with a slice or two taken out of it. The pulsating sequence of, was it serious 1-6?, which ended with a scary skull image at the end of a quest, was then watered down to the skeleton with bits falling off, and then just a photo of a pie.
The original 'face' life force was used from series 1 to 5, with additional use in series 6 as a death animation - the walking armour/skeleton one was used from series 6 to 7. I'm with you insofar as the pie was the worst one; in fact, it seemed superfluous. Food was, by this point, a hangover from the earlier series (and less important, since they were now using the knapsack for clue objects!); I very clearly remember not realising that the pie was a life force indicator and wondering exactly what it was!
Like so many others in this thread, I don't really think Knightmare jumped the shark at any point, but then I need to point out the fact that I watched the series in the wrong order.
I was two when Knightmare started and wouldn't have really started watching it until around series 4 or 5. I was still in primary school when series 8 ended (although I sent in an SAE anyway!) and, although I have fond memories of those times, I had never seen any of the earlier series. I did eventually catch series 1 to 4 on Sci-Fi (although they didn't indicate which series was being shown at the time, but I did see it all), and the closest thing I got to a 'shark-jumping' moment was realising the fact that at the beginning of the programme there was no Lord Fear! I'd just assumed he was always the Big Bad!
Now I'm much older and have seen every episode multiple times, in the correct order, there are clearly some moments where Knightmare changed noticeably, but I wouldn't say it jumped the shark:
(i) Outdoor Scenes
This was a staggering difference and probably the biggest switch in the whole run of all eight series: going outside. I remember Tim saying in a TES interview that "in some ways it was necessary to make those changes", which I kind of understand - there was a need to keep things fresh, and if series 4 had been exactly the same as series 3 it wouldn't be seen as innovative any more! Although I'm not fond of the purple tint, I don't mind the existence of outdoor scenes, but it wouldn't be until series 5 that I think they used them to their full potential.
(ii) Extra Equipment
This has always been a bone of contention, but I don't really mind the Eye Shield as an object. My biggest problem with series 1 to 3 was how slowly it moved - navigation out of a room once the team had dealt with whatever the room presented was repetitive and tedious - and the Eye Shield helped to move the quest along at a quicker pace. The passive paths may have been too long, but I understand the need to hurry the teams up a bit.
I also don't have any problems with the Reach wand aside from the fact that it was obviously a mouse pointer! With modern technology, that could have been done much better.
(iii) Dragon Flights
I haven't got a problem with this, either - how many people can genuinely say they've ridden on the back of a dragon?
(iv) CGI
Knightmare was innovative in a way that few other programmes ever were, and one of the ways it remained so was that it moved with the times. In some ways, Knightmare's CGI transition seemed seamless - a little in S4, more in S5, more in S6 and quite a lot in S7 - and the biggest jump happened in series 8, where everything was CGI and back in the dungeon (for the most part!).
But I think that, in many ways, although that was a noticeable shirt, it wasn't jarring - it was just the way things were going. A growing boy with my SNES on hand, I was noticing the improvements in graphical rendering (Donkey Kong Country came out in 1994 and looked fantastic), and Knightmare doing the same just seemed natural!
What might be an interesting thing to do is to watch the series in REVERSE order (8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1) and see if you are noticing the changes more or less obviously - or even if there is a shark jumping moment that way around!
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