BUT spell
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Hadn't remembered that!
I stand corrected, like a man in orthopedic shoes.
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Thanks for reigniting this discussion, Brett. It's good to consider these things afresh every so often.
Into a lizard? That's very specific; I can't see any indication that that would be the case!
There is no indication of the likely effect of BUT one way or the other, which is why we're so free to speculate about it. As Brett says, we did see human to lizard metamorphosis elsewhere in Series 4, and we know that Series 4 reused ideas, so it's not unthinkable.
They weren't meant to win. The production team didn't expect them to get that far into Level 3 and a decision was made behind the scenes that Helen shouldn't win as they were the first team of the series.
I agree Team 1 were probably deemed too early to win; I suspect Tim decided to make it very hard to win; abstruse but not necessarily impossible.
A first team win is hard to imagine because not only did we never see one, but we saw 4/8 Team 1s perish on Level 1. Some teams may have had easier quests than others, and a first team win might have been undesirable to the production crew, but I can't quite believe that they would have gone as far as making a quest unwinnable just because it was the first of a series. Surely any team is 'meant to win' if they're good enough and make the right decisions (Christmas notwithstanding)?
I was going to ask Tim about it at Knightmare Convention, but I doubt he'd have remembered something that specific!
Yet as we heard in his BBC Radio Norfolk interview days before the convention, Tim did seem to remember the ending of this quest, so he may well have had more to say if he'd been asked. Ironically, he did have one or two overly specific questions put to him at the convention, such as who played the flower seller in Series 5.
I'm glad you liked the FrightKnight suggestion, DuxBellorum; in fact they were in Series 4, as Gondrada declares in our question (towards the end of episode 15).
To add to the confusion, the armoured warriors were referred to as frightknights in Series 4 and behemoths in Series 3. Maybe frightknights 'evolve', like Cybermen.
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Drassil, you seem to have understood my point of view well regarding the BUT spell encounter! The only Behemoth I know is in the book of Job, which for me doesn't particularly equate to the knight in Series 3 (although you're correct in recalling that Treguard made that connection). In some ways I wish I had had the opportunity to go the convention, although I have no idea whether I would have been available at the time had I known about it beforehand.
It would be useful to know whether Tim would divulge information about memorable quest endings and unused spells etc. - and this might have been put to him already by now, in any case. There might be legal reasons why he cannot, or he might not wanted to get bogged down in detailed questioning from fans. I know in the contract there was recourse to someone in Anglia Television if we didn't think Tim's decision as producer was fair but I don't know if any team went down that route.
I would have thought it quite likely that Tim would remember the main characteristics of each team and quest, and probably has favourite elements from each series - but not, for example, obscure extemporary allusions in the scripts that he wrote in a hurry or who played minor characters without speaking parts (they would likely have been recruited by the director, Jimmy McKinney - e.g. as he recruited Erin Geraghty, so Tim might not necessarily remember background players in places like the Crazed Heifer or Wolfenden).
My impression is that he prefers to keep some mystery, either because he thinks it will prolong interest in the show or because he enjoys it - think of all the cryptic riddles and clues in the show and the name he has chosen by which to identify himself on this forum!
Towards the end of our quest - in fact I think it was just after the last Eye Shield sequence, I asked the floor manager Tom whether there was choice in the Eye Shield (i.e. could you turn left or right at various junctures). His reply was 'There is some choice in the Eye Shield'; answers like that would not necessarily give us the clarity we might like, even if we got them! (True, you can choose precisely when to 'hold up the Eye Shield', but that seems pretty trivial, and I can't think of any other choice, given that it was a simple, linear video sequence).
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I would have thought it quite likely that Tim would remember the main characteristics of each team and quest
I'm fairly sure he remembers very little of the specifics.
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I can see how Transformation might have been used to Transform a rotten apple to a fresh one if they wanted to go down that route, but we also saw in later seasons the dungeonner transform to defeat lord fear so it could also have been that.
"But" more than likely would have deactivated the magic sword, maybe they gave them to word but knowing it wasn't clear what it did and knowing the team and i suspect most people giving the choice would go for what appears to be more useful, the Transformation spell.
I can't help but think had they used it they would still have been killed off, with some response that they needed to transform themselves or the sword.
One of KM many mysteries i doubt we'll ever know, or it might be very simple and we'll over thinking it.
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"But" could have stopped the magic sword (I wouldn't have thought there was intended to be a wordplay on 'butt' but you never know) and then the Transformation spell could have turned Mogdred into - say a lizard. However, he was blocking the obvious exit - although Treguard could have directed them off to the left, past the gallows.
I would have thought that would have been easier to implement than my earlier suggestion of Mogdred having second thoughts and turning Helen into a lizard because then you're removing the image of Mogdred and replacing it with the lizard, rather than changing Helen while also having Mogdred superimposed from the second blue room. It also has a stronger sense of victory, in the same way Dickon's team overcame Malice.
I don't think they would have been 'killed off' had they chosen 'But' first. In fact I seem to recall the Adventurer's Code stating that sometimes we would be given more than one spell and have to choose the order carefully.
You could argue that they were given hints as to the correct spell in that Hordriss referred to 'But' as more 'humble' and then Mogdred said 'You are too proud' when Helen was on the bridge. However it seems to me there was no precedent for needing to heed such hints in Knightmare 1-3, so the team could be forgiven for thinking they had simply navigated across the collapsing bridge and that was it. I would say a similar thing happened to the team in Series 3 who cast the 'DANCE' spell and didn't think to dispel it - there was no precedent and they were just thinking about making their exit, making progress. After all, Treguard did his best to hurry us all along to keep the viewing good! And for that matter, I think within our team we realised it was Merlin in the stocks (and that's what we were saying to each other as we re-entered the green room after filming that scene) so perhaps we thought it was too trivial to no need to be verified with another character in the game.
If the first team had won, I would have thought the production team would have made the rest of the series significantly tougher by any means they could implement!
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It's a tough one. BUT being a 'humble' spell wouldn't be my first choice of spell when being attacked by a magic sword and a madman, it's hard for the team to use a spell that they have no idea what it is or does.
Just been watching it on youtube and yes it seems Mogdred maybe did drop a hint.. a little cue. Not sure what the spell would have done though. I can't see Mogdred casting another spell on them afterwards.. that would have been the finial encounter, he would have been defeated, going by other winners, but we'll never know for sure.
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My own theory on what the 'But' spell would have produced is that it would have thrown Mogdred into a state of confusion and he would have begun arguing with himself over how best to kill Helen, (e.g. "the sword is mighty and powerful, BUT lightning is more effective, BUT then again magic is more powerful yet" and so on) leaving the sword poised in the air and allowing Helen to slip past him. It would prove to be Mogdred's undoing, as he is always so sure and proud about himself. Just look at "Look upon Mogdred now and quail" as proof of his self-assurance. Take that away from him and what is he left with?
BUT (sorry, I couldn't resist) we'll never know for sure.
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OR, Tim knew the team was going to die and simply picked a random word out of the dictionary, knowing that the spell's true purpose (and even its spelling) would never be revealed?
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Now a BUTT spell would have caused equal calamity surely...
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Now a BUTT spell would have caused equal calamity surely...
I suspect it may have involved a certain degree of flatulence.
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its spelling would never be revealed
s4-t1-l3-status.JPG
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Ummmm....
Damn autocomplete!
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Having rewatched Series 4 Episode 3 on BritBox, I've been thinking about this again. So just before we become a cashless society, here's another ha'pennyworth from me.
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The baddy confronting the dungeoneer in a 'final encounter' on Level 3 is not strange - Morghanna, Malice, Aesandre and Lord Fear all did it;
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The baddy sending a floating weapon to menace the dungeoneer on Level 3 is not strange - Mogdred did it in Series 3 Quest 4 (Leo), Morghanna did it Series 3 Quest 6 (Ross);
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The baddy sending a floating weapon to menace the dungeoneer on Level 3 while staying yet doing nothing is strange - Morghanna dispatched an axe to make Ross "squirm" but didn't bother to hang around, whereas in Series 3 Quest 11 she killed Martin personally with a serious double trepanning. This implies that Series 4 Team 1's two spells were meant to deal separately with the two threats.
In other words, I agree with previous theories that BUT, a "quite humble" spell, was intended for the sword: to pause it or ward it off.
To address the other half of the puzzle, I'm going to speculate more wildly.
Why would Mogdred need a glorified letter opener to do his bidding anyway? Could it be that something prevents him from killing a dungoneer directly? Is he restricted by his status as Merlin's alter ego? (This could also explain why he tried to trick some dungeoneers into destroying themselves with questionable gift spells, and why he had to trap Tony (Series 2 Team 5) in a "playpen".)
A couple other things we do know:
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In the History of Knightmare on this website, Tim Child says that by Series 4, 'the Merlin/Mogdred scenario was exhausted (I had always found it annoyingly derivative)';
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David Rowe's Art of Knightmare book suggests that in Series 1 Quest 6, the OPPOSITE spell was intended to turn Mogdred into Merlin (as Canadanne has discussed in another topic). This is corroborated by information gleaned via David Rowe during the Knightmare Convention in 2014.
I'm suggesting, therefore, that to avoid wastage of the unused OPPOSITE idea, and to give a 'last hurrah' to the 'Merlin/Mogdred scenario', the "most powerful" TRANSFORMATION spell was intended to transform Mogdred into Merlin. He'd then have urged Helen on as he did for other dungeoneers he met on Level 3.
What I'm less sure about is how the team would have been given the time to cast this long spell. Mogdred just standing there and letting them do it could have been an anticlimax. Perhaps BUT would have sent the sword at Mogdred, distracting him for as long as the team needed, but could a "quite humble" spell have gone as far as to turn the sword against its master?
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After all his highly threatening remarks to Helen about ending her quest, personally I can't see anything moving Mogdred to be deliberately charitable, especially in the final stages. But we'll probably never know.
Having speculated on what the spells would have done, I've also been thinking about the scenario itself.
Other teams also had to choose between two spells, mostly in final encounters. The challenge was far from equal. Here are some comparisons.
Series 6 Team 5
Choice: between TRICK or TREAT from a spell scroll
Hints and prompts: Treguard told them to consider not just Lord Fear, nor just Lord Fear's sense of humour, but "Lord Fear's so-called sense of humour"
Outcome: won
Series 5 Team 4
Choice: whether to use FIRE or FREEZE against Aesandre; when to use the remaining spell
Hints and prompts: "The one defeats the sorceress Aesandre. The other releases the object of your quest" (Hordriss); "You must of course fight fire with fire" (Aesandre)
Outcome: won
Series 4 Team 6
Choice: whether to use FIRE or OPPOSITE against Malice; when to use the remaining spell
Hints and prompts: FIRE is "most powerful", OPPOSITE is "quite humble" (Hordriss); "You must eat or drink something now" (Treguard); "Now, you must eat or drink something now" (Treguard again, when the team tried to guide Dickon out); "And? Go on!" (Pickle, after the team cast OPPOSITE)
Outcome: won
Series 4 Team 1
Choice: whether to use TRANSFORMATION or BUT against Mogdred; when to use the remaining spell
Hints and prompts: TRANSFORMATION is "most powerful", BUT is "quite humble" (Hordriss); no other hints or prompts
Outcome: lost
It was therefore considerably easier for the later teams than for Helen's team.
In choosing to call one of S4 T1's spells BUT - not something descriptive or defensive, like PARRY, STOP, OFF or even NO - Tim Child deliberately made the puzzle more difficult than it could have been. Likewise, he could have asked Hugo via the earpiece to give a hint, such as encouraging them to act quickly and thereby discouraging them from using the longer spell.
He didn't. Why?
Maybe because the team had had plenty of hints and prompts to get as far as they did, such as Treguard reminding them how to respond to finding the bracelet on Level 3. Tim may have felt that the team had got (in Mogdred's words) "quite far enough", introducing watchers to substantial parts of a radically changed dungeon along the way, and that making it easy for them to win would have gone too far. He knew that his job was to entertain watchers.
On Level 3, Helen's team did have a chance. But not, it seems, a 'sporting chance'.
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Good observations as usual, Drassil. I would add that Mogdred arguably gave a further clue when he said, "You are too proud... you ride too high..." especially after Hordriss had described BUT as a humble spell.
But these subtleties of dialogue, it seemed to me, were not so important in Series 1-3 and so in Series 4 you wouldn't necessarily be expecting to have to analyse them and pick up on them; the format was changing somewhat. Also, deciphering important clues from entertaining filler in the heat of the moment is tricky enough sometimes. For example, I tried to write down Mellisandra's strange and confusing directions on our quest but it turned out not to be necessary.
Happy Easter, by the way,
Brett
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Drassil makes some great points above.
I agree that S4 T1 got a tough deal with these two spells. Tougher than the other teams mentioned. Perhaps because it was deemed undesirable for a series-opening team to win.
Faced with the chief antagonist, who was about to destroy Helen, it seemed logical to cast the spell which had been described as "most powerful" rather than the "most humble" spell. They hardly had a moment to realise that Rachel wouldn't have time to complete the very long "TRANSFORMATION" spell.
As others have stated, i assume that the "BUT" spell would have temporarily stopped Mogdred, causing him to adopt a stance of, "BUT, why should i kill you just yet? I enjoy watching fear, so i shall enjoy watching yours.... " (Rather like his threats to S2 T3.)
It seems highly unlikely that this scene with Mogdred was intended to be the final encounter.
The team had barely arrived in level 3. Compare the quests of Dickon and Giles (and even Alastair) and it would appear that Helen & co still had some way to go. Probably the transporter pad puzzle, surely the corridor of blades and Dooreen, before the final quest-object room.
Also, Treguard uses "DISMISS" which was still used for teams who fell early in level 3, (S3 T6, S5 T3) not "UNITE" which was saved for teams who fell at the final hurdle. (S3 T4, S3 T11)
The "TRANSFORMATION" spell might have been intended for use like Dickon's "OPPOSITE" spell, or to transform something into their quest object at the end.
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As others have stated, i assume that the "BUT" spell would have temporarily stopped Mogdred, causing him to adopt a stance of, "BUT, why should i kill you just yet? I enjoy watching fear, so i shall enjoy watching yours.... " (Rather like his threats to S2 T3.)
Perhaps it would have sent Mogdred into a loop of indecision ("But perhaps I should watch you squirm a while longer..." "But then again, why waste any more time?" "But on the other hand..."), and they could either cast the longer spell (if it was meant to be used on him) or simply escape the chamber while he carried on talking to himself.
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