Series 4 Episode 3
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I do believe this was a very unfair death but think they died for 2 reasons.
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if u saw mogdred would you wait to cast a spell oif he turned up in person especially with the old flashing sword appearing.
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Team onhe always had it quite hard, so who knows first teamd bad luck i suppose
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I wonder, if the shorter spell had been made more obvious that it was defensive, would that have made a difference to their choice? Suppose it was 'block' or 'shield'. I think 'but' was pretty cryptic and the team went for something which they felt they could apply more easily to the situation. BUT, haha , I guess then there is the issue that the choice is made far too easy.
HStorm is probably about right with the scroll idea. My idea would be to produce a paradoxical clue - say for example: 'You could transform yourself later but wait a little while first' or words to that effect. Then it's still a difficult level 3 spell choice but the emphasis on 'but', if paid attention to, would allow them to use BUT on mogdred and then choose to use transformation later on in the level .
To sum up my thoughts, I think that although they were ill fated by bad luck, they might have got the blades afterwards - and would she have been lucky to survive that, especially as it would have been their first appearance.
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My instinct would also have been to go for the longer transformation spell. Same logic - you want to use the powerful spell on the powerful opponent.
That said, when the spells were given, I remember thinking "But...as in "but" or as in the "butt" of a sword?"
It seems unfair, given that they weren't really given any clue. But perhaps the dev team made a mistake? I mean, if they hadn't prepared a response to "transformation" being cast, they were buggered. Even if they had a suitable response ready and the "transformation" spell was needed later on then they would only be prolonging the life of the team so they could die later on.
As always, we just don't know what was cut or what was planned. Maybe the dev team was upset with them. Maybe the players needed to go home in an emergency...maybe they did something utterly stupid that we didn't get to see. The only thing we know is the explanation of the death seems unfair
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I hereby request to the Court Of Knightmare that the death of Helen be reviewed upon appeal and that she should be posthumously excused.
The Defence has just rewatched the evidence of the episode on youtube and presents the following case:
The team were given two spells by a Mr. Hordriss The Confuser, namely Transformation and But, and the crucial point in the Defendant's case is this:
The Transformation spell was descibed as "most powerful" and the But spell as "quite humble".
When Helen was then faced with the arch villain of the piece, a Mr. Mogdred, a spectral sword was hurled towards them. Helen's advisors naturally called upon the "most powerful" spell of Transormation. Nevertheless, they were killed by the sword, the aforementioned Mr. Mogdred stating the words "too slow, too slow". Following the killing, the Dungeon Master, a Mister Treguard, told Helen's advisors "Too long team, your magic was too long. What you needed here was the shorter spell".
However, at no point in their quest were this team given any kind of clue that the But spell was the spell they should have used. The Prosection's case of the death being justified on account of slow spellcasting does not stand up, on the basis that they were poorly advised by Mr. Hordiss The Confuser.
I rest my case.
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Thanks Canadanne, however no personal glory necessary. I just wish to see justice finally prevail for innocent Dungeoneers after all these years. After all, they were wearing the Helmet Of Justica at the time.
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Two very contentious points in this memorable episode.
Team 1 entered level 3 and in the first room found the bracelet requested by Hordriss. They summoned him and in gratitude he gifted them two spells:
One was most powerful: "TRANSFORMATION", the other was quite humble: "BUT".
Next-up was a precarious bridge over a chasm. A vision of Mogdred appeared and asked them to pledge to him. They firmly refused and the bridge began to collapse, but they moved Helen across to exit safely.
In the next room Mogdred appeared again, to destroy them in person. They decided to use their most powerful magic to counter him, but before advisor Rachel could complete the lengthy "TRANSFORMATION" spell, Mogdred gloated, "Too slow!" and destroyed Helen with a spectral sword.
Treguard told them that they should have used the shorter spell "BUT".
It was a really harsh ending for team 1 as they were a very good team and seemed to be going along well. (Rather reminiscent of Jamie in S2 or Cliff in S3.)
It felt rather like Hordriss' description of the spells had wrong-footed them. Faced by a malevolent sorcerer, it seemed logical that they would use their most powerful magic, not a humble spell. They had little time to realise that they wouldn't be able to complete the longer spell.
At a guess, "BUT" would have blocked Mogdred's sorcery and caused him to retreat, leaving them the longer spell for much later, at the end of level 3, to somehow complete their quest.
Team 2 started with a bang!
Alastair stepped from the spindizzy onto the pathway for the shield and seemed to fall off (onto the studio floor) but is allowed to continue.
I think this is an awkward opening room anyway. The pathways leading off are very narrow, leaving little room for error. Several things occurred to me:
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Alastair's advisors told him to step off too late. He was never gonna land on the pathway safely.
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I am convinced that the spindizzy is revolving faster than it did for team 1. Watch both clips and you will see what i mean. (I can't imagine why they would alter it tho.)
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As they clearly received a first-room let-off, surely they would have just done another take. Why leave in such an obvious howler? (Unless this was the retake! )
After their crazy start, team 2 settled down and made steady progress. They passed Dooris with no problems.
In the next room something was clearly out of place. A sorceress wearing an ornate hood and flowing black robes. It looked like Morghanna! But surely not! She was the dark queen of level 3, found in the shadows, not someone who appeared openly in level 1.
It turned out that this lady was a new sorceress (who had shamelessly copied Morghanna's fashion sense) with the calling name of Merris. She offered them a pact to retrieve for her a green gem (last seen in the possession of Julie before she was terminated by goblins) in exchange for her assistance. She also left them in no doubts about her power and the consequences for them if they failed her!
In exchange they received the eye-shield.
Next encounter was with Bother Mace, who offered them advice on the path forward. He departed just as the bell sounded.
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- I am convinced that the spindizzy is revolving faster than it did for team 1. Watch both clips and you will see what i mean. (I can't imagine why they would alter it tho.)
Having now watched both of these clips side by side, the spindizzy in team 2's quest does indeed go round a fraction quicker compared to when team 1 faced it.
Well done Morghanna, another excellent observation... I'm learning new details of the smaller, minor aspects that happened throughout the show which I hadn't previously picked up on after all these years.
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I agree with James. Thank you for a new and interesting observation, Morghanna.
For easier comparison, here are the official YouTube clips from the ITV Children's Classics channel of the spindizzy and the Place of Choice disc:
If the disc was operated manually (as, for example, the conundrum answer board was in Countdown), it may have been difficult to get a consistent speed.
In a similar vein, we may find ourselves discussing Block & Tackle entry points in due course.
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You would hope that the machinery would be set at a standard pace. It would be a little harsh on some teams if it were not.
Drassil, thanks for the video clips. Not sure if there is any noticeable speed difference between the two clips in S3. Of the clips from S3 it was only team 2 where it seemed faster.
As an opening challenge in S4, this was actually a tricky little test. Those exit walkways look quite narrow. At least in S3 there are 5 exits next to each other. I think a couple of teams actually missed their marked exit but still landed on the next one. No such room for error at the place of choosing!
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Giles (team 8 dungeoneer) mentioned he noticed the whirr of the motor from the beginning of the scene, before filming started - but the machinery could have had an analogue speed setting that was set slightly differently each time the device was set up.
Brett, I regret that I'd forgotten about this thread from a couple of years ago in which I'd asked about the revolving disc and you'd mentioned Giles hearing the motor. Thanks for reminding me.
Anyone with playground memories of stepping onto or off a moving roundabout will sympathise with Alistair's loss of footing. A shame they couldn't have edited or refilmed it to save him some embarrassment.
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In many ways, when you think about it, this is a classic fiendish Knightmare puzzle: as an adviser, there's little you can do except to suggest the timing of your dungeoneer's vault; as the dungeoneer, blindfolded and launching off - as Drassil put it - a roundabout. It was the only scene we filmed on our first day of filming, we spent about five minutes negotiating it and I remember saying to the rest of the team when we were at our hotel that evening, "If that was just the first challenge, what will the rest be like?"
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It was the only scene we filmed on our first day of filming, we spent about five minutes negotiating it and I remember saying to the rest of the team when we were at our hotel that evening, "If that was just the first challenge, what will the rest be like?"
That's interesting to consider in a broader context. It's not something that teams from any other Knightmare series could have related to. Series 2 dungeoneers got their quests started by pulling a lever; Series 3 dungeoneers by rolling a die. Giles and the seven other S4 dungeoneers were asked to risk their physical health. I can imagine Alistair and his advisors being a little shaken by his stumble, and - like you and your team, Brett - being left with a heightened sense of trepidation about what challenges lay ahead.
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Yes, coz from your knowledge of series 3 your team would have known this as a level 2 challenge, so to encounter it immediately must have been interesting. Particularly unfortunate that you had overnight to dwell on that thought before continuing....
Obstacles like the spindizzy are the reason why i would have wanted to be an advisor not the actual dungeoneer if i had ever been on the program.
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BritBox has added episode descriptions for Knightmare. For episodes with two teams, they follow the same formula. This episode's is:
'See how the contestants from Tyne & Wear fared & meet the new ones from Woodbridge.'
More evidence that the BritBox subtitlers didn't consult any Latinists: to banish the haunting, Hordriss says "Abesse!" (literally "To be away") but the subtitle is "Out, I say!"
In Series 1, Mogdred was over-credited i.e. named in the credits but never actually appeared. Now he is under-credited: as in all Series 4 episodes, John Woodnutt is credited only as Merlin (who isn't in this episode).
My thoughts about TRANSFORMATION and BUT as posted in another thread in May:
Having rewatched Series 4 Episode 3 on BritBox, I've been thinking about this again. So just before we become a cashless society, here's another ha'pennyworth from me.
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The baddy confronting the dungeoneer in a 'final encounter' on Level 3 is not strange - Morghanna, Malice, Aesandre and Lord Fear all did it;
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The baddy sending a floating weapon to menace the dungeoneer on Level 3 is not strange - Mogdred did it in Series 3 Quest 4 (Leo), Morghanna did it Series 3 Quest 6 (Ross);
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The baddy sending a floating weapon to menace the dungeoneer on Level 3 while staying yet doing nothing is strange - Morghanna dispatched an axe to make Ross "squirm" but didn't bother to hang around, whereas in Series 3 Quest 11 she killed Martin personally with a serious double trepanning. This implies that Series 4 Team 1's two spells were meant to deal separately with the two threats.
In other words, I agree with previous theories that BUT, a "quite humble" spell, was intended for the sword: to pause it or ward it off.
To address the other half of the puzzle, I'm going to speculate more wildly.
Why would Mogdred need a glorified letter opener to do his bidding anyway? Could it be that something prevents him from killing a dungoneer directly? Is he restricted by his status as Merlin's alter ego? (This could also explain why he tried to trick some dungeoneers into destroying themselves with questionable gift spells, and why he had to trap Tony (Series 2 Team 5) in a "playpen".)
A couple other things we do know:
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In the History of Knightmare on this website, Tim Child says that by Series 4, 'the Merlin/Mogdred scenario was exhausted (I had always found it annoyingly derivative)';
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David Rowe's Art of Knightmare book suggests that in Series 1 Quest 6, the OPPOSITE spell was intended to turn Mogdred into Merlin (as Canadanne has discussed in another topic). This is corroborated by information gleaned via David Rowe during the Knightmare Convention in 2014.
I'm suggesting, therefore, that to avoid wastage of the unused OPPOSITE idea, and to give a 'last hurrah' to the 'Merlin/Mogdred scenario', the "most powerful" TRANSFORMATION spell was intended to transform Mogdred into Merlin. He'd then have urged Helen on as he did for other dungeoneers he met on Level 3.
What I'm less sure about is how the team would have been given the time to cast this long spell. Mogdred just standing there and letting them do it could have been an anticlimax. Perhaps BUT would have sent the sword at Mogdred, distracting him for as long as the team needed, but could a "quite humble" spell have gone as far as to turn the sword against its master?
It's intriguing that we hear the spellcasting sound as the quest ends. Not only that, but it's the Series 3 spellcasting sound: used earlier in this quest for FREEZE, but not the sound used in any other Series 4 quest when a spell is cast. Here it's confusing because we can also hear Rachel still saying the letters of the spell.
I like the return of the banana as Team 2 prepares for the quest.
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Anybody else enjoying the Lego Knightmare episodes, by the way? I hope they make more of them soon!
It seems most likely that BUT would have (slowed? or) stopped the sword... (and dispelling it - perhaps to send it back to Mogdred - would have been a clear throwback to series 3 if you start with the 'T'...)
Although I think your connection back to Series 1 is practically watertight, Drassil, I think it more likely that Tim would have been wanting to cover new ground by Series 4, so I think it less likely that TRANSFORMATION was intended to turn Mogdred into Merlin (presumably that would also have necessitated a lengthy delay while the costume was changed, or a pre-recorded [Team/Zoom] video-message from Merlin).
As I alluded to above, I think it's possible TRANSFORMATION would have acted not on Helen, nor on Mogdred (lizard? pillory? stocks?), nor even on the chamber itself, but perhaps on the sword itself in some way...
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I think people read too much into the Transformation/But thing.
Transformation was never intended to do anything (other than lure the team to make a mistake by picking the fancier-sounding spell). The point of it was for Mogdred to kill them whilst they were in the middle of casting it. Which is what happened.
But, as the name suggests, would simply have made Mogdred change his mind and allow them to pass. Simples. (Maybe not very dramatic but the point of it was that it was a "humble" spell. Can't think of anything more humble than that).
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