TAPE PIRACY
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My point was that I do not condone Piracy of any active brands.
As I do not have Sky (and cannot afford it), I would welcome an unofficial copy as I have would have no other way of being able to watch it.
If somebody was to release an official DVD, then I would be one of the first to go out and buy it, whether I had an unoffical copy or not.
It may sound like a contradiction, but in the situation with Knightmare, I would be willing to have one of these in the interim until there is an official release.
I would not purchase a pirate copy of anything that I can obtain via normal routes.
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And that goes back to my point of not having, and not being able to afford Sky.
Maybe there should be a petition for a DVD official release? Maybe then it might happen, and people would not have to resort to unofficial fan-made versions if they want to watch the programme.
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There have been loads of petitions about it, Kev, take my word for it. Unfortunately, none of the publishing companies pay much attention to them. Even Granada Media ignore them, even though they were the ones who put forward a proposal for a DVD release in the first place.
Check some of the threads on the 'What Knext?' board for more details.
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I hope you all understand my views.
I don't want to be seen to be condoning piracy, I just want to be able to watch Knightmare!
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Yeah, I think it's the one most people have. The common sense take is that, so long as what's in circulation is definitely and permanently 'abandonware', it's not really piracy to copy and distribute it, as long as it's done discreetly and on a not-for-profit basis.
The problem when attaching this principle to Knightmare is that its 'abandonware' status isn't definite - especially as it's still shown regularly on Challenge - and as there are so many efforts to get a DVD release, it's not necessarily a permanent one either.
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Well in my opinion i think its all rather petty to prevent people from obtaining these sets on ebay, the only people who will type in "knightmare" into ebay will be a genuine fan of the show.
I work in audio post production / restoration and from the audio side alone i know the amount of time and work involved to convert all of that old analogue footage into digital footage to meet todays DVD quality standards would mount astronomical costs! You cant even imagine how much work actually goes into DVD production of that kind.
And they are right they would certainly not sell enough units to cover thier losses.
They only ever release the entire series DVDs of really popular shows like, The A Team or (K)nightrider!
If we are very lucky we may see a "Best Of Knightmare" DVD set
which would probably be 90 mins of edited moments.
but even still that is highly unlikely.
I really cant understand why so many of you have such a negative outlook on these ebay sets, you cant buy this programme anywhere else, and the people selling them are doing all the genuine fans a service.
I think some of you are trying to take the moral highground on this, and others have just followed suit not wishing to rock the boat.
Im totally against piracy of new unreleased movies or of DVD sets that are available to purchase from shops,
but i think there is a lot of room for debate when the show is:
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not available to purchase anywhere
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never going to be released on DVD (sorry but its true)
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over 10 years old
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currently being re run on a really unpopular cable/sky channel
sorry if i sound a bit blunt but i really did love this show when i was growing up and the only people who would be interested in buying a set like this would be genuine fans like me, and without ebay i would not have been able to watch it this over this xmas holiday.
dont cut off your nose to spite your faces
all the best guys
100% agree. I'm a member of many forums, and all contain moderators/administrators who do take the moral high-ground of which you speak. People see those posts and then play along, because the general public are sheep.
I'm doubtless that people will take offence to that, but it's true.
Can you all say you have never sometimes disregarded elements of the law? Especially the smallest of small print or, as in this case, the situation of doing no harm?
Pirate copies of Knightmare are not taking profit away from the copyright holders because the copyright holders are not using the show to produce DVDs - I'd put my house on the statement that people who do buy pirate copies would buy an official release.
The official release is not going to happen, however much false hope circulates.
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The following soap box rant is very long you have been warned....
A lot of people have taken objection to their sale on eBay largely down to when it first started occuring. Originally there was organised "tape trading" in the form of NKTP long before Challenge started showing the episodes. People were fine with this and Tim Child himself had no complaints.
But then the episodes started being sold on eBay for stupid sums of money like £40. Much more than the cost of copying, clearly being done not as a service but to make a quick buck.
Because of this the whole tape trading thing also had to cease because the powers that be began to take notice.
A lot of people believe that in buying pirate copies it reduces the potential for DVD sales since it shrinks the market. But surely Challenge TV showing the numerous repeats has done far more damage to the potential market. I personally believe that as has been said that even people with pirate copies or vhs recordings would still go and buy the real thing. There is still considerable value in a well produced product. Plus DVDs allow for considerable extra value to be thrown in (Interviews, Commentary tracks, Hidden features etc).
Most people have acquired episodes through traditional means of contacting each other where they can't be easily tracked. E.g. MSN, Yahoo, Private messages in KM Chat room. Keeping it off the forum means should anything occur you're not going to end up with a law suit chasing you.
Those that do conduct these backhand deals also do so at cost rather than with aim of making a profit. Therefore I think that what is the real issue is people making a profit from something they've no right to royalties from.
Yes the eBay pirates are filling a niche market that should really not exist. Knightmare should be out on DVD considering that many less popular programs are already.
I don't think time to convert the footage is an issue, Challenge TV clearly have managed to obtain the episodes in a more common useable form and possess them at a level of quality that does not require digital enhancement. I've seen digital recordings from Challenge TV broadcasts myself and one thing they're not is poor quality. And in fact the quality would be even better if transferred straight to DVD.
The DVDs on offer I would guess are conversions of the AVI files that are available for free to download. These AVI files despite being considerably small meet most peoples level of acceptable and much better than any VHS recording. If people are paying for poor quality DVDs on eBay I'm sure they'll be happy to pay for Challenge TV quality DVDs so the argument about restoration is not really worth making. Anyone who knows who to ask, or where to search will easily come across the files. I personally consider this form of piracy (because UK law does clearly state it is illegal) to be a far lesser crime ethically than selling for a profit.
My argument for piracy is that essentially Knightmare earned the money that was expected from it years ago. It is only the fan base which has helped give it a new lease of life and once again make it a valuable commodity. In software piracy there's an area called "abandonware" which is software that's so old the hardware isn't sold anymore and even the publishers tend to not exist or sell the existing stuff. Really if the creator of something had made their money from it and isn't willing to address the new markets formed from nostalgia it really ought to become public domain material. But my own beliefs can't change the law.
This forum has to respect the law regardless how wrong or right it might be. eBay in my opinion are worse than "warez" sites and P2P networks. Not only are they not sued for allowing piracy to occur (unlike P2P networks which have legitmate uses and do not charge) they're making a profit out of the piracy. So eBay doesn't genuinely have an interest in preventing illegal activity which is why despite reporting sellers they're rarely removed or stopped. But to stay in business eBay will bend over backwards when lawyers get involved.
So in conclusion people are anal on the forum because somebody tried to abuse tape trading and turn it into a money making business. It damaged an existing system of fair trade that worked fine and the Powers that be didn't much mind. The episodes can be viewed on Challenge TV (for the cost of a sky or cable subscription) or downloaded (if you know where) for free. There's no need for genuine fans to be profiting from Knightmare, and a genuine fan would be glad to enable another fan to watch the show at cost. It isn't that people don't want others to see Knightmare or be able to watch it, it's just they'd rather it be done in a fair manner in which any profits go to the right place.
Maybe one day Tim or Anglia might one day consider a pay to download system for obtaining episodes a bit like iTUnes & Channel 4. It is certainly lower risk marketing wise than producing DVDs. For the time being try asking around before turning to the eBay pirates, but don't ask on the forum because the owner & moderators don't want the legal responsibility and it's risky to condone or encourage illegal activity no matter how much you really disagree with the law.
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Not only are they not sued for allowing piracy to occur (unlike P2P networks which have legitmate uses and do not charge) they're making a profit out of the piracy. So eBay doesn't genuinely have an interest in preventing illegal activity
sucks in air through teeth
It's very dangerous to say that ebay should be held liable for the sale of copyright-infringing goods. The person who commits the copyright infringement is the guilty party, not Ebay. They are a very large operation, and auctions ARE closed down; however, the manpower involved in checking - manually - every auction that is reported is simply huge. I imagine they prioritise it by something like the number of reports, and there's no way Knightmare is ever going to rack up the same number of reports as other dodgy auctions.
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I didn't say that they should be held liable though did I? And nor should they be.
What I did say was a comparison, that just like P2P networks eBay serve a legitimate and illegitimate trade. However, they're never attacked by the media moguls E.g. RIAA, MPAA... I believe that anyone providing a service should be treated equally and not on the basis of how big a company they actually are. I seriously don't believe anyone that produces any type of goods or services should be held accountable for how those goods & services are used. Even though there's a lot of people who think very differently. But I do think that all companies diserve equal treatment regarding this, which does not happen... eBay is given a rather wide birth.
Illegal activity ... Perhaps a broad statement there yes I faultered. What I ought to have said is there's not a lot of incentive for them to prevent piracy because they profit from it (as they do from all listings except freebies) and almost everyone buying such goods knows they're counterfeit goods. Unlike other illegal activity such as taking money and never delivering.
Please note I haven't said they are actively supporting piracy, just saying they're not exactly doing much to prevent it and do not honour a lot of the reports people send to them.
I'm speaking from experience here in which taking the proper route for reporting a user yields no response yet taking a similar yet different abuse report route does so. Thus suggesting they're not as committed as they ought to be and claim to be.
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I've read the majority of the thread through now and I'm kind of in two minds about the whole thing...
firstly, why is an official release of Knightmare never going to happen... by that I mean they've released other kids' shows years and years after they were on TV... Dungeons and Dragons being a good example... so what makes it so certain that it'll never happen with Knightmare...?
Secondly, surely making copies of stuff you've recorded on TV and passing them on is no more illegal than recording the programmes and then lending the tape to a friend to watch? OK, it's kinda immoral to make copies and sell them on... but then again, how many people obey the law to the letter all the time anyway?
Say you've got about 8 or 9 episodes recorded off the TV... is it illegal to keep them?
I'd hate to see any official releases scuppered because of loads of unoffical copies flying about, but I can see where the 'pirates' are coming from... how many other kids' shows with this kind of following never get a release?
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why is an official release of Knightmare never going to happen... by that I mean they've released other kids' shows years and years after they were on TV... Dungeons and Dragons being a good example... so what makes it so certain that it'll never happen with Knightmare...?
Well, it's not certain I suppose, but if you look at all the threads on the What Knext? board, you'll see just how many attempts fans have made to persuade Granada Ventures to release it, and most of them have been met with abject silence. Between online petitions and bombarding them with letters, we've been trying to convince them for about six or seven years. If it really were going to happen, I'm sure there'd be some sign of it by now.
Secondly, surely making copies of stuff you've recorded on TV and passing them on is no more illegal than recording the programmes and then lending the tape to a friend to watch?
And the thing is, strictly speaking, that is illegal.
Say you've got about 8 or 9 episodes recorded off the TV... is it illegal to keep them?
Yes. It's illegal to retain possession of any unauthorised recording beyond 72 hours. Whether it's morally acceptable is another matter.
I'd hate to see any official releases scuppered because of loads of unoffical copies flying about, but I can see where the 'pirates' are coming from... how many other kids' shows with this kind of following never get a release?
This is a point that has been rather 'done-to-death' over the years. Knightmare is one of the programmes that could probably be classed as 'Abandonware' i.e. a show that has effectively been abandoned by its creators and broadcasters, and which, so long as no one makes a profit from it, can be distributed fairly freely. As long as there are no profits involved, and no prospect of an official commercial release, that would appear morally fairly sound.
However, there is no definition of 'Abandonware' in Law, and that means that any video distribution of the programme, for profit or otherwise, is illegal. The moral argument is all very well, but it won't make it any more legal. That's why the practise of tape copying will never be encouraged on this forum, while profiting from it will always be loudly - and rightly - condemned.
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Annoyingly, this bloke (http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=onastik&iid=140071579710&ssPageName=VIP:feedback:2:uk) has sold loads of sets of the complete 8 series, at £35 a go...now, I want them. But £35? Seems ridiculous. Especially as it's illegal and unofficial. How annoying.
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One thing I can't work out is that he's selling all 8 series on 8 DVDs. That equates to 1 DVD per series.
Now, as far as I know, you can get up to 4 hours worth of footage onto a single DVD. An episode of Knightmare usually lasted for about 25 minutes, which means 8 or 9 episodes of Knightmare on a single disc. Now, considering series 2-7 all ran for about 15/16 episodes, how on earth does he cram an entire series worth of episodes onto a single DVD?
Forgive me if the answer is a lot simpler that I thought it would be, but I'm not exactly the brightest spark when it comes to the technical side of things.
If you would like to know what exactly I'm talking about:
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One thing I can't work out is that he's selling all 8 series on 8 DVDs. That equates to 1 DVD per series.
Now, as far as I know, you can get up to 4 hours worth of footage onto a single DVD.
A standard DVD recorder will quite happily do 6 hours onto a disc. Still not enough for a 16-episode series, but if he's shoved the episode through some editing software (to remove adverts, for example) then it would be a simple matter to compress the recordings down to a lower quality so that one season could easily fit on a disc.
EDIT: Not that I'm condoning what's being done, just explaining how it's possible.
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Secondly, surely making copies of stuff you've recorded on TV and passing them on is no more illegal than recording the programmes and then lending the tape to a friend to watch?
And the thing is, strictly speaking, that is illegal.
Say you've got about 8 or 9 episodes recorded off the TV... is it illegal to keep them?
Yes. It's illegal to retain possession of any unauthorised recording beyond 72 hours. Whether it's morally acceptable is another matter.
From http://www.patent.gov.uk/copy/c-applies/c-tvfilm.htm
"A recording of a broadcast does not infringe copyright if it is made in your own home to watch later. For any other use you may need the permission for the rights holder, unless copyright exceptions apply."
So recording a programme off TV is a legal and authorised recording under UK law.
From http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p01_uk_copyright_law
"7. Restricted Acts
It is an offence to perform any of the following acts without the consent of the owner:
Copy the work.
Rent, lend or issue copies of the work to the public.
Perform, broadcast or show the work in public.
Adapt the work.
- Acts that are allowed
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Recording of broadcasts for the purposes of listening to or viewing at a more convenient time, this is known as 'time shifting'."
Emphasis mine. So lending a recording to your mates is not allowed, but there is no 72-hour restriction on watching a recording, at least in the UK.
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