TAPE PIRACY
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you do realise that without a licence to display all of this content from the show, (images, audio clips, video clips) on this site YOU are infact in breach of the copyrights!!
I take it this user read the 'terms of use' page?. The contents of this page is similar in wording to that used on many TV presentation websites.
Do i need to contact the copyright holder and report your site? Its the same thing your doing to the ebay guys.
From memory the rights to Knightmare have now reverted back to Televirtual. So if you wish to report knightmare.com to the owner of Televirtual then you are more than welcome. Unfortunately for yourself the owner appears to be Tim Child, who is fully aware of this website. Incidentally worth noting that knightmare.com isn't part of a commercial opperation, compared to dvd sales on ebay.
And furthermore i find it hilarious we have a bunch of people here who are complaining about the copyrights when this site isnt even an OFFICIAL SITE!!
Whilst the argument of "this isn't even an official website" may be true, it does have some official input for example the history pages of the website. If time was taken to read the other pinned dvd topic it would become clear that request is being made from Tim Child, therefore I think this argument is somewhat irrrelevant.
If people wish to trade these dvds on a fan to fan basis then what the hell is the problem with that?
sigh please read the other pinned topic and you should realise why.Remember people the link for reporting auctions is...
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Why does Tim Child want them removed? If he plans to release the show onto official DVDs then its understandable but is he?? I highly doubt it!!
I am a great fan of the show and would 100% purchase an official released boxset if one existed, but it dosnt so i have had to make do with a fan made one.
If Tim Child has no intentions of releasing the shows on DVD then he should not prevent genuine fans from watching the show via other methods, its being broadcast on challenge TV so it is available to the entire nation to record in their own homes if they so please,
I pay for sky and if i had the time i could have quite easily recorded these myself onto my home DVD recorder. Would that be allowed? whats the difference?
I got all series 1-8 for £15.
What with stock, labour, machine wear and tear, electricity bills, postage and all the other things, i cant imagine much profit being made on the fan made sets.
Its not about profit, its about genuine fans being able to enjoy the show, if hes releases the DVDs officially i will still buy it, but he wont, so we either make do with the home made ones or go without.
Lets be honest its hardly a state of the art top secret hollywood movie, the programme is donkeys years old and not really worth much in commercial value, sure it has a few thousand of us fans but nothing near the number required to compete with some of todays offerings!
here is the 10 DVD boxset i bought for £15 it was the best one i saw on ebay, the guy selling it was a genuine fan we had a good chat about the show turns out his brother was an actual contestant and wanted to see the show, he didnt know what series or episode so thats why he ended up recording the all the series.
You genuine fans are missing out, waiting for something which will never come!
stop trying to be heros, life is too short, you wont get an award!
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In answer to a couple of queries here:
Permission was obtained from Tim Child in 1998 to create this website and I have a letter as proof.
I'm sure he would love to have Knightmare released on DVD but it's Granada Ventures (owners of the Anglia archive) who would decide that. They have not done so as they don't think they will sell enough copies to make it viable, and it has been said before that this is partly due to tape copying.
More info is available on the FAQs at www.knightmare.com/faq.htm
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Well in my opinion i think its all rather petty to prevent people from obtaining these sets on ebay, the only people who will type in "knightmare" into ebay will be a genuine fan of the show.
I work in audio post production / restoration and from the audio side alone i know the amount of time and work involved to convert all of that old analogue footage into digital footage to meet todays DVD quality standards would mount astronomical costs! You cant even imagine how much work actually goes into DVD production of that kind.
And they are right they would certainly not sell enough units to cover thier losses.
They only ever release the entire series DVDs of really popular shows like, The A Team or (K)nightrider!
If we are very lucky we may see a "Best Of Knightmare" DVD set
which would probably be 90 mins of edited moments.
but even still that is highly unlikely.
I really cant understand why so many of you have such a negative outlook on these ebay sets, you cant buy this programme anywhere else, and the people selling them are doing all the genuine fans a service.
I think some of you are trying to take the moral highground on this, and others have just followed suit not wishing to rock the boat.
Im totally against piracy of new unreleased movies or of DVD sets that are available to purchase from shops,
but i think there is a lot of room for debate when the show is:
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not available to purchase anywhere
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never going to be released on DVD (sorry but its true)
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over 10 years old
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currently being re run on a really unpopular cable/sky channel
sorry if i sound a bit blunt but i really did love this show when i was growing up and the only people who would be interested in buying a set like this would be genuine fans like me, and without ebay i would not have been able to watch it this over this xmas holiday.
dont cut off your nose to spite your faces
all the best guys
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Well done, KM12345. Thanks for bringing attention to forumites the time involved in producing discs. I’ve done a lot of editing over the holiday, and it takes so long that sometimes I can’t be bothered. So for the Brollochan to simply assume that selling price less cost equals profit is unjust. Even unofficial productions have costs involved. Unless people resell other peoples unoffical work.
To Illusion…
It doesn’t matter if you’ve obtained permission from Tim Child. He doesn’t own the Intellectual Property to Knightmare – ITV do. Granada Ventures are merely a satellite group that deal with the merchandising of brands beyond broadcast. BUT, as Knightmare is no longer an active brand, and there are no current plans to bring Knightmare to DVD, it makes your point invalid.
Just enjoy the show, guys.
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To clarify matters, the rights to the Knightmare format reverted solely to Tim Child a couple of years ago. Granada own the right to the 'made programmes'.
Your argument is completely neutered by your use of the word 'current'. As you currently perceive it, there are no 'current' plans to bring back Knightmare to DVD. You assume that the status of the market will remain fixed. What about new, cheaper, higher-capacity media in the years to come? By doing what you are doing, you are undermining future possibilities. Also, in providing an alternative to subscribing to Challenge, you are reducing their potential audience. How well would that go down in their board room if they were ever considering commissioning the new series?
To quote the rules of this forum, "we cannot condone this activity as it is illegal and potentially could get yourself and/or the site in trouble."
That is the bottom line.
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This is obviously an emotive issue amongst the forum members.
I for one would be very grateful for the opportunity to own Knightmare on DVD. It's never going to happen as an official release, as Knightmare only really has a 'cult' following of a few thousand fans - it would just not be profitable.
Regardless of the rights or wrongs, I would welcome an unofficial copy! As long as there was no blatant profiteering of course.
And before anybody asks, I do not condone piracy.
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My point was that I do not condone Piracy of any active brands.
As I do not have Sky (and cannot afford it), I would welcome an unofficial copy as I have would have no other way of being able to watch it.
If somebody was to release an official DVD, then I would be one of the first to go out and buy it, whether I had an unoffical copy or not.
It may sound like a contradiction, but in the situation with Knightmare, I would be willing to have one of these in the interim until there is an official release.
I would not purchase a pirate copy of anything that I can obtain via normal routes.
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And that goes back to my point of not having, and not being able to afford Sky.
Maybe there should be a petition for a DVD official release? Maybe then it might happen, and people would not have to resort to unofficial fan-made versions if they want to watch the programme.
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There have been loads of petitions about it, Kev, take my word for it. Unfortunately, none of the publishing companies pay much attention to them. Even Granada Media ignore them, even though they were the ones who put forward a proposal for a DVD release in the first place.
Check some of the threads on the 'What Knext?' board for more details.
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I hope you all understand my views.
I don't want to be seen to be condoning piracy, I just want to be able to watch Knightmare!
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Yeah, I think it's the one most people have. The common sense take is that, so long as what's in circulation is definitely and permanently 'abandonware', it's not really piracy to copy and distribute it, as long as it's done discreetly and on a not-for-profit basis.
The problem when attaching this principle to Knightmare is that its 'abandonware' status isn't definite - especially as it's still shown regularly on Challenge - and as there are so many efforts to get a DVD release, it's not necessarily a permanent one either.
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Well in my opinion i think its all rather petty to prevent people from obtaining these sets on ebay, the only people who will type in "knightmare" into ebay will be a genuine fan of the show.
I work in audio post production / restoration and from the audio side alone i know the amount of time and work involved to convert all of that old analogue footage into digital footage to meet todays DVD quality standards would mount astronomical costs! You cant even imagine how much work actually goes into DVD production of that kind.
And they are right they would certainly not sell enough units to cover thier losses.
They only ever release the entire series DVDs of really popular shows like, The A Team or (K)nightrider!
If we are very lucky we may see a "Best Of Knightmare" DVD set
which would probably be 90 mins of edited moments.
but even still that is highly unlikely.
I really cant understand why so many of you have such a negative outlook on these ebay sets, you cant buy this programme anywhere else, and the people selling them are doing all the genuine fans a service.
I think some of you are trying to take the moral highground on this, and others have just followed suit not wishing to rock the boat.
Im totally against piracy of new unreleased movies or of DVD sets that are available to purchase from shops,
but i think there is a lot of room for debate when the show is:
-
not available to purchase anywhere
-
never going to be released on DVD (sorry but its true)
-
over 10 years old
-
currently being re run on a really unpopular cable/sky channel
sorry if i sound a bit blunt but i really did love this show when i was growing up and the only people who would be interested in buying a set like this would be genuine fans like me, and without ebay i would not have been able to watch it this over this xmas holiday.
dont cut off your nose to spite your faces
all the best guys
100% agree. I'm a member of many forums, and all contain moderators/administrators who do take the moral high-ground of which you speak. People see those posts and then play along, because the general public are sheep.
I'm doubtless that people will take offence to that, but it's true.
Can you all say you have never sometimes disregarded elements of the law? Especially the smallest of small print or, as in this case, the situation of doing no harm?
Pirate copies of Knightmare are not taking profit away from the copyright holders because the copyright holders are not using the show to produce DVDs - I'd put my house on the statement that people who do buy pirate copies would buy an official release.
The official release is not going to happen, however much false hope circulates.
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The following soap box rant is very long you have been warned....
A lot of people have taken objection to their sale on eBay largely down to when it first started occuring. Originally there was organised "tape trading" in the form of NKTP long before Challenge started showing the episodes. People were fine with this and Tim Child himself had no complaints.
But then the episodes started being sold on eBay for stupid sums of money like £40. Much more than the cost of copying, clearly being done not as a service but to make a quick buck.
Because of this the whole tape trading thing also had to cease because the powers that be began to take notice.
A lot of people believe that in buying pirate copies it reduces the potential for DVD sales since it shrinks the market. But surely Challenge TV showing the numerous repeats has done far more damage to the potential market. I personally believe that as has been said that even people with pirate copies or vhs recordings would still go and buy the real thing. There is still considerable value in a well produced product. Plus DVDs allow for considerable extra value to be thrown in (Interviews, Commentary tracks, Hidden features etc).
Most people have acquired episodes through traditional means of contacting each other where they can't be easily tracked. E.g. MSN, Yahoo, Private messages in KM Chat room. Keeping it off the forum means should anything occur you're not going to end up with a law suit chasing you.
Those that do conduct these backhand deals also do so at cost rather than with aim of making a profit. Therefore I think that what is the real issue is people making a profit from something they've no right to royalties from.
Yes the eBay pirates are filling a niche market that should really not exist. Knightmare should be out on DVD considering that many less popular programs are already.
I don't think time to convert the footage is an issue, Challenge TV clearly have managed to obtain the episodes in a more common useable form and possess them at a level of quality that does not require digital enhancement. I've seen digital recordings from Challenge TV broadcasts myself and one thing they're not is poor quality. And in fact the quality would be even better if transferred straight to DVD.
The DVDs on offer I would guess are conversions of the AVI files that are available for free to download. These AVI files despite being considerably small meet most peoples level of acceptable and much better than any VHS recording. If people are paying for poor quality DVDs on eBay I'm sure they'll be happy to pay for Challenge TV quality DVDs so the argument about restoration is not really worth making. Anyone who knows who to ask, or where to search will easily come across the files. I personally consider this form of piracy (because UK law does clearly state it is illegal) to be a far lesser crime ethically than selling for a profit.
My argument for piracy is that essentially Knightmare earned the money that was expected from it years ago. It is only the fan base which has helped give it a new lease of life and once again make it a valuable commodity. In software piracy there's an area called "abandonware" which is software that's so old the hardware isn't sold anymore and even the publishers tend to not exist or sell the existing stuff. Really if the creator of something had made their money from it and isn't willing to address the new markets formed from nostalgia it really ought to become public domain material. But my own beliefs can't change the law.
This forum has to respect the law regardless how wrong or right it might be. eBay in my opinion are worse than "warez" sites and P2P networks. Not only are they not sued for allowing piracy to occur (unlike P2P networks which have legitmate uses and do not charge) they're making a profit out of the piracy. So eBay doesn't genuinely have an interest in preventing illegal activity which is why despite reporting sellers they're rarely removed or stopped. But to stay in business eBay will bend over backwards when lawyers get involved.
So in conclusion people are anal on the forum because somebody tried to abuse tape trading and turn it into a money making business. It damaged an existing system of fair trade that worked fine and the Powers that be didn't much mind. The episodes can be viewed on Challenge TV (for the cost of a sky or cable subscription) or downloaded (if you know where) for free. There's no need for genuine fans to be profiting from Knightmare, and a genuine fan would be glad to enable another fan to watch the show at cost. It isn't that people don't want others to see Knightmare or be able to watch it, it's just they'd rather it be done in a fair manner in which any profits go to the right place.
Maybe one day Tim or Anglia might one day consider a pay to download system for obtaining episodes a bit like iTUnes & Channel 4. It is certainly lower risk marketing wise than producing DVDs. For the time being try asking around before turning to the eBay pirates, but don't ask on the forum because the owner & moderators don't want the legal responsibility and it's risky to condone or encourage illegal activity no matter how much you really disagree with the law.
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Not only are they not sued for allowing piracy to occur (unlike P2P networks which have legitmate uses and do not charge) they're making a profit out of the piracy. So eBay doesn't genuinely have an interest in preventing illegal activity
sucks in air through teeth
It's very dangerous to say that ebay should be held liable for the sale of copyright-infringing goods. The person who commits the copyright infringement is the guilty party, not Ebay. They are a very large operation, and auctions ARE closed down; however, the manpower involved in checking - manually - every auction that is reported is simply huge. I imagine they prioritise it by something like the number of reports, and there's no way Knightmare is ever going to rack up the same number of reports as other dodgy auctions.
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