Series 6 Ep 11
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well thats true because the correct path always falls in the end anyway, and doesn't matter what path you take as long as you are on step ahead of the clock.
but that's so silly (if it's true, not you or your opinions). the dungeoneers, using that logic, could just run straight forward and survive. i really don't want that to be the case.
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yeah with said that before... 'just run for it' lol
But i there has to be a 'correct' puzzle code.
there arn't that many puzzles that the teams could jsut run for, but i guess in this situation the correct path would be the last to fall, so to start safe keeping to the path is the best way, but there doesn't seem to be anything stoping them just just going for it.
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ithink it was a kind of let them pannicvk a bit and guess it was the great causway and a bit of tension is always good!!!
thouight it was very< unfair fro Sophi she had no ebergy and no causeay code so how can u be quick and get food at the same time not afair chance!!!
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That had me in stitches... Pickle exclaims "Elf Boots" at the "Growing ring", and when the advisor repeats it Pickle gives her a look like "Where the hell did that come from?!?"
Good episode, though. Excellent for this stage of Knightmare, but only good if you consider all the series.
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And what's with Lord Fear sat on a rock wearing tights? You'd never catch Mogdred cross-dressing, or being so easily overcome!
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This quest had plenty of enjoyable moments. And I agree that because of their superlative teamwork skills, this team deserved to do well. However, I think they were very lucky to become winners. Note: These are just my opinions - I'm not looking for argument or trying to rile anyone. My criticisms are not of the team, but of what was thrown at them:
- Free ride on Smirkenorff
Granted, this wasn't the only team to get a free dragon ride; but as they approach Smirky, Treguard makes a speech about needing a fare, only for Smirky not to demand one. I find that a bit jarring. To me, it would have been fairer if the team had been obliged to persuade Smirky that the horn was a worthy fare, just as many teams before them had had to do in similar situations (e.g. Dickon's team persuading Fatilla to take the horn in Series 4). But as it was, Ben was still clutching the horn as he walked off Smirky's back.
- No Level 2 clue object choice
I found this so astonishing I had to check the episode twice: there were only two clue items on offer in the Level 2 clue area. The phrase 'walk in the park' comes to mind. When you consider that Team 2's quest failed because they didn't take the correct Level 2 clue item (the witch amber), it looks very unfair.
- BACKFIRE let-off
When the team encountered Peggatty and her aerial assault, one of the advisors began to spellcast BACKFIRE. "Spellcasting: B," he says, before Pickle interrupts and tells them just to get Ben to the exit. (The scene looks edited too.) Moments later and Greystagg is advising Ben to discard the destructive spell. I accept that if the team had cast BACKFIRE and destroyed their dungeoneer on the spot, then it would have gone down in history as one of Knightmare's most unfair deaths; but the way things were, it seems pointless to me that the spell was ever included in the quest in the first place.
- Ariadne
From where I'm standing (or, rather, was sitting), Ariadne got Ben. However, just as with near misses in the Corridor of Blades, maybe it was the production staff's call, and if so, I hope they judged fairly. Plus, the pattern with Ariadne encounters seems to be that it's not lack of swiftness that dooms a dungeoneer, but lack of defence (e.g. the Series 4 team that died in Ariadne's Lair didn't have the hibernation spell, but all the S4 teams that survived Ariadne had a spell or help from a character); in which case, Ben was never in any real danger of being caught by Ariadne. The challenge was, I presume, for the team to hold their nerve long enough for the scroll-reading as well as the astrolabe-collecting.
- TRICK or TREAT hint from Treguard
Treguard's advice that the team should consider not simply Lord Fear, nor simply Lord Fear's sense of humour, but Lord Fear's "so-called sense of humour", made the TRICK or TREAT riddle a lot easier to solve. (If only Team 1 of Series 4 had received help like that with their TRANSFORMATION and BUT predicament.)
- No Corridor of Blades
Although it sounds cynical, one could argue that in Series 5 and 6, the CoB was only 'given' to teams who were already in 'losing status'. The lack of the CoB in this quest seems to support that. Either way, it would have been a welcome addition, and I think the team would have managed it well.
- Only one Level 3 clue object needed
In my opinion, taking the gold from the Level 3 clue room was an obvious choice, and then it turned out that they didn't need their second object (the mace) anyway. It is true that other winning teams got through Level 3 without needing two clue room items (see Series 4 & 5), but in this case, the team had it easy on all three levels where clue object choices were concerned. To me, that seems uncomfortably unfair.
I feel I should draw some sort of conclusion. It could be said that Knightmare was made for children to enjoy, and not for twentysomethings to scrutinise; and although I've just done the latter, I did enjoy Ben's quest at the time, so maybe my criticisms don't much matter. Nevertheless, I now look at the quest and wish that it had been more challenging, so a team of that calibre could have been tested more than they were.
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agree with your comments, and the last one is very correct.
Watching nightmare as a kid these things never enter the mind at all.
Certianly season 6 is more drama play then game playing and you right about the backfire event really the team should have died there.
The 3rd causeway they had it easy in (a) time limit not starting till after they picked up food, (team after didnt have this luxury) and (b) on the path part of the causeway the blocks dropping were slower then usual although I checked and if they fell at normal speed the team were still fast enough.
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my points.
1 - ben team guessed 4 and 5 correctly but then had no clue what was next and if you watch it they did indeed just walk fast forward bypassing the 5th step, they were not penalised for it. Either because they dashed voer the right block or simply because it was allowed.
2 - sofia team shouldnt have ran out of energy she got the food but was killed off when the energy didnt recharge, she did have it much harder as the time limit kicked in right away unlike with ben they were allowed to get the food first.
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My verdicts on the three causeway deaths in Series 6:
Matt (Team 1)
I thought they were very unlucky to get killed off the way they did. Up until then, they had done everything else in their quest spot on. Not only that, but Matt was one of the best dungeoneers ever in the entire programme. To be perfectly honest, they were killed off just because the tiniest part of Matt's feet was barely an inch off the causeway itself, and the production team seemed to think this was good enough cause to kill them off, which I just have to disagree with. If they were allowed to complete the causeway like they should have done, I'm sure Level 3 would have beckoned straight afterwards.
Alan (Team 3)
This team's death was fair. They had learnt how to cross the causeway as a result of spying on Lord Fear, but when it came to the causeway itself, the advisors hesitated for far too long and hence were fairly killed off at the beginning. Still, it enabled advisor Jim to provide one of my favourite quotes of the series in the guise of "We're dead Alan!" Just one thought, if the team had successfully got across, how would have Skarkill and his goblins caught up with them, since they were also lurking in the dwarf tunnels beforehand, surely they would have had to get across the causeway as well?
Sophia (Team 6)
I know this might spark off some dabate, but in my opinion Sophia's team were fairly killed off. You will remember from earlier on that they were too hesiatant on Hordriss' question in the Level 3 Examination. As a result, they failed to obtain the scroll (read "diploma") that would have provided them with the combination to get across the causeway. I think the food on the causeway itself just provided an obstrcution and time delay, whilst they were busy picking up the food it enabled the Frightknight timer to complete its round and successfully knock some blocks into the abyss, one of which Sophia was standing on.
As for Ben's winning team, you will remember that only half of the causeway combination was given. Up until the causeway itself, they had done everything right so it was fair to assume they would need to do some detective work in order to get across. As the scroll read 2, 3, ?, ?, ? they assumed that each hexagon would increase by 1 figure in order to get across, however, the fact they got across by crossing 2, 3, 4, 5, 4 meant that either the combination could have allowed for the figures to decrease by one as well as increase, or the fact that the Frightknight timer was too slow to catch up with them. I think that as they reached the second half where the next Frightknight timer awaited them the line where they had to uncover "FIND" was a line of safety against the first Frightknight timer. As a result they breezed through the second half and ended up as eventual (and deserved) winners.
I hope that provides some discussion from my angle.
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I totally agree with you about Sofia, JamesA - it was the fact that she didn't have the scroll clue that set up her whole losing situation on the Great Causeway. If she had won her diploma, everything would have been different; more like Ben's situation, where he did have the scroll clue.
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Though Ben and his team did not have to possess any general knowledge in order to earn it...
Of all the teams that ultimately perished due to not knowing the answer to a question, Sofia's is the team with which I have the least sympathy, because I would have expected any Knightmare contestant to know about alchemy. Having said that, the raise-your-hand entrance examination set-up was unusual and potentially confusing; and overall, I did want the team to win.
I can't help thinking that Sofia's team was 'given' the Corridor of Blades because they were already in 'losing status' (cf. Teams 3 and 8 of Series 5). Had it killed them, maybe Treguard would have implied that the diploma would have got them through it, rather than saying that the diploma would have helped them with another obstacle that they didn't even reach.
One more point, since I'm already off topic... I find it odd how Sofia's Level 3 had no definite location, whereas Ben's did (the Mines of Gore). It makes Ben's quest seem somehow more... predestined (and I've discussed elsewhere how easy their quest was throughout, in my opinion).
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I totally agree with you about Sofia, JamesA - it was the fact that she didn't have the scroll clue that set up her whole losing situation on the Great Causeway. If she had won her diploma, everything would have been different; more like Ben's situation, where he did have the scroll clue.
So in your view if a mistake is made earlier they should change the design of a room to force a death?
Because no matter how you look at it the facts remain, she picked up the food and it didnt recharge her energy and bens team the timer didnt start until he picked up the food whilst with sophia it started right away.
You ignored these 2 points, having a scroll should not have changed this.
You also forget bens team were given the scroll free.
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I've already said in a different post, I agree with you that Sofia's death was unfair. She had to work much harder to get the scroll with the combination (hence she didn't get it) and then was given no chance to have a go at the causeway anyway. However, even though Ben's quest was a lot easier, the fact is that Ben had done what he needed to do to see the scroll, and Sofia hadn't. I'm not saying this is fair - it isn't. Ben had a much easier ride through the whole quest, and Sofia's was very hard. But I do understand why they killed Sofia - she had made one mistake in level 3, and that was enough. Compare this to Ben, and it seems unfair, just like many other deaths. But I can see why, in the eyes of the production team, Sofia's death was justified.
A lot of the winners seemed to have an easy ride. Think of Dickon, who didn't have to earn any magic to deal with Ariadne or face the Block and Tackle, challenges which had killed the last 3 teams between them, and killed the next one too. Of course, if no one had ever won Knightmare, people probably wouldn't have wanted to go on it, as they wouldn't have thought they had any chance of winning. That's why they made absolutely sure they had a winner in series 2 - they tried to help Chris through, but he fluffed by not taking the magic shield, so then they helped Mark through, and he won. Dickon was helped quite severely to become the first champion in 2 years - they should have let Helen win if they were going to do that! The first Ben didn't have any help, really, but as we know, the second did. Julie and Barry were pretty much all on their own merits, but as for Dunston... presumably you're of the mind that the Short Cut was completely unfair, chrysalis, seeing as you're interested in Knightmare's unfairness? Utterly awful way to end the programme, that Short Cut. Now, who's going to disagree with that?
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cant comment on dunstan yet havent watched it recently. when I say unfair I mean the manner in how she was killed.
If they deliberatly gave her a hard room and she failed it I would see that as fairer then ignoring food she picked up because thats what they did, she picked up the food and it was ignored.
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Yes, that did always strike me as rather odd. Sofia clearly put the food in her knapsack, but the skeleton just crumpled up, whereas with someone like Barry when he was supposed to stand under the water, it survived without its helmet for ages. Just goes to show how they put the life force clocks in later, and so they really had absolutely nothing to do with what actually happened.
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Hey. Well, I think part of this goes along with the 'unfairness' debate. Referring to the initial diagram of Great Causeway possibilities, I always thought [read: only ever saw one possibility] that it was consecutive numbers. It says nothing about the build up to that point in various quests.
I think James' breakdowns are very good. Given the nature of this thread, I'll keep my useless two-penneth-worth to those quests. As has been mentioned, they fulfilled their requirements to be able to progress. The peril was still there for Ariadne's lair, and they did move very swiftly in that room. I agree with David, however, that Ben's S6 quest, like Ben's of Season 5 [Winteria], and Julie's of Season 7 [Arken], had a more specified nature to it, and there was seemingly more of a prerogative for it to continue.
I suppose what defines Ben's team's effort: their directional ways handled the causeways better than any other team in that season; they improved with time; and most of all, when they got stuck on that causeway, they kept on going under pressure rather than standing still. Made their own luck with a bit of common sense.
Sofia's team were unfortunate. It would have been interesting if they had blown it in the chamber with Elita and Skarkill - but as was fairly typical throughout the years, if someone did not fulfill their synopsis criteria, so to speak, there was little mercy, especially in level 3. When the timer activated wasn't really going to be a factor - they did not have a way to go. The adversity of the graphic - them collecting food and the skeleton collapsing, worked so well. Blimey, Knightmare is such a science, is it not?
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