When Did Knightmare "Jump The Shark" For You?
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I agree with the consensus that Knightmare never jumped the shark, though it was teetering perilously on the edge in Series 8, and I do now think it's probably for the best that it ended when it did. If Tim had been able to pursue his vision of a fully VR show, it would have felt very different indeed, and likely not in a good way.
Personally I find it difficult to compare and rank the series because each of them had its good and bad points. It may have gone downhill in some ways, but other things were improved at the same time, so it was never wholly displeasing or absolutely perfect. Examples...
Series 1-3
Good: Really atmospheric and claustrophobic, reminds me of watching it when I was very small and being properly scared. David Rowe's paintings looked much better than the real locations and CGI that followed. More emphasis on general knowledge, guiding skills and decision making - poor teams weren't let off back then.
Bad: Quests were rather formulaic and repetitive - the lack of variety and plot makes repeat viewings a little dull. Not that many likeable characters. S3 took several ideas from S2 and made them better, but was slightly less entertaining, mainly because Treguard was no longer a total nutjob.
Series 4
Good: Plenty of material for fanfic writers, with a bunch of new locations and intriguing hints of power struggles going on in the background. I found Dunkley Wood quite scary and memorable as a kid. Introduced the Corridor of Blades, probably the most popular challenge ever. I also like the status bar that first appeared this year.
Bad: Treguard & Pickle's endless repetition of lines and the interminably slow Eyeshield sequences make it so tedious that it's almost painful to sit through. (I have no objection to the Eyeshield, as long as they vary the clips and it doesn't take up too much time.) Level 1 success virtually guaranteed. Riddles reduced to true-or-false questions that can be guessed, and wall monsters replaced by weeping doors which were possibly the most annoying thing ever.
Series 5
Good: Wonderfully varied so that every quest is different (and no faffing around in the same start chamber every time). Great winning team. Lord Fear ('nuff said). Several highly amusing and satisfying deaths.
Bad: A few poor teams, some of whom got further than they should have done. Too many Causeway deaths. Riddles now used infrequently and mistakes continue to be excused, which does make it feel a bit dumbed down compared to the early seasons.
Series 6
Good: It looks awesome. Almost a whole series of really likeable teams. Tension music is a nice addition. The role of Pickle and his relationship with Treguard has been perfected. Lord Fear & Skarkill also make an amusing double act. Elita considerably less annoying than last year.
Bad: Didn't like the witches or the series finale. The tedious choice room has been brought back. Causeways feel overused as they all look the same. Treguard's catchphrase and floating at the end of each episode is a bit odd (I preferred his banter with Pickle). Lord Fear starts to become more of a comedy character, which is still brilliant entertainment, but he's not scary any more.
Series 7
Good: Really nice progression through the levels, with outdoor stuff on Level 1, increasing danger in Level 2, and the memorably unnerving Goth in Level 3. Great trap chambers in Play Your Cards Right and the Trial By Spikes. The combined brilliance of Julie and Barry's quests to finish off the series. Episode recaps are pleasingly concise and informative.
Bad: New helmet, introduced purely so they could use sight spells, which were just a terrible idea (it goes against the whole point of the show and didn't work particularly well anyway). Loveable Pickle replaced by whinging Majida, which also reduces Treguard to a grumpy old man. The series takes a while to hit its stride. Same boring Smirkenorff flight in each quest. No Motley, just Fidjit who was rubbish. The Brollachan is creepy but pointless - there is no longer any punishment for not knowing the right answers.
Series 8
Good: Yet more interesting locations and monsters introduced. Some fantastic new characters. Some fantastic teams. Riddles finally brought back. Motley returns. Majida more likeable than before.
Bad: New director and it shows, with lots of unnecessary and weird changes. Don't like the new chairless antechamber, don't like Lord Fear's new look, don't understand why Treguard has started making stupid gestures at the start and end of quests, don't like the way teams aren't summoned or dismissed using magic, don't like the watchers being ignored, don't like clue objects being carried in the knapsack, don't like the Life Force pie. Some poor and/or annoying teams. All the rooms in Levels 1 and 2 look the same, and fugly with it. FLOAT spells are also too repetitive. Things are rushed and messy as they tried to cram too much into a shorter series - the final quest was compressed to the point of absurdity and they should have just given Dunstan the extra time for Level 2.
So yeah - I enjoy some series more than others, but I'm incredibly grateful even for the weaker ones, because they all had something unique and valuable to offer. It remained at least partly excellent right until the end for me.
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Just read David's response to my article.
Firstly, a very entertaining read (as all David's posts are) and full of valid points. As pointed out, this is a highly subjective topic and while I can't say David is wrong about anything, I can share my feelings on the points he makes.
I always thought of the various vale locations as underground caverns. The bridged vale pictured in the article is certainly in keeping with the dungeon aesthetic. Vanburn obviously has a more exterior feel but I would say that a) it was never a favorite of mine, b) it is still quite otherworldly and c) level one can just about get away with this. As a one off, it was fine (and do we know it was 'ground level'?).
Dwarf tunnels - the S3 stalking sequences with their sound effects and backward glances got the pulse racing more than any eye shield sequences with howling wolves. But yes, they were slightly passive and repetitive. As a series experiment I don't really have an issue with them. And that might be what really annoys me about the eye shield - they didn't try it out and discard it (the producers understandably had to find ways of keeping the show fresh) but they KEPT THE BLOODY THING! Despite TIm Child apparently hating it. Grr.
I used the word otherworldly above and this is surely a key part of a fantasy scenario's appeal. This is why I dislike the real world locations - feeling involved takes away the magic for me.
There's a more general point I want to make. People seem to take the phrase jumping the shark as meaning when a show 'became a bit rubbish'. This isn't the definition on which my article was based and KM certainly never became rubbish. Though the early series are by far the best as far as I'm concerned, I was still taping and rewatching the show to the bitter end and was very disappointed when it disappeared from our screens.
If the show had been on an upward trajectory when that SIGHT spell was cast then I would say it probably would be my JTS moment too. But the introduction of the eye shield remains, for me, the most jarring change in KM's history. And it was definitely a change for the worse.
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No it wasn't a change for the worse, that's just your opinion. And they were certainly exteriors in s3.
Real locations didn't hurt either, many kids wouldn't have even known.
It added variety, after three years the formant needed looking at to keep the show moving forward, other wise it would be repetitive and boring. If anything the eye shilled kept the show going for a few more years, without it the show would have died a nasty death far too soon.
It kinda speeded things up, and not having to see the teams struggled to walk in a straight line.
If anything, the biggest mistake with the long dragon rides.
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For me the dwarf tunnels were miles better in series 6. Along with the music adding to the tension. I did enjoy the article though and it's good people have different opinions. Mine is the show had to evolve to keep things fresh. If Knightmare kept using the same rooms, it probably would have lasted 4 series.
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Oh I completely agree that the show had to evolve. My issue is the manner in which it did.
KM evolved over S1-3 via the introduction of great new rooms/monsters/characters. The real world aesthetic as represented by the eye shield showed (in my very humble opinion) a lack of imagination. It was no doubt a very easy way to expand the dungeon but it just wasn't as interesting.
There were of course some fantastic (and fantastical) innovations post S3 - the corridor of blades, block and tackle, causeways, trial by spikes, play your cards right (all a lot more fun than a photo/video of a real world location) but there simply weren't enough of them.
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Hobgoblin, you make an interesting point about not intending "jumping the shark" to be synonymous with "became rubbish".
Although I had always made this connection, now that you mention it, I suppose that it's not entirely true. I think it was supposed to represent the point at which the writing became so unrealistic as to be ridiculous, i.e. the writing became lazy.
In any case, I'm curious as to how you define it
and same question to Drassil.
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Ok, from Wikipedia:
"Jumping the shark is an idiom created by Jon Hein that was used to describe the moment in the evolution of a television show when it begins a decline in quality that is beyond recovery, which is usually a particular scene, episode, or aspect of a show in which the writers use some type of "gimmick" in a desperate attempt to keep viewers' interest."
The introduction of the eye shield certainly didn't come at a point when KM producers were desperate but, for me, it does represent a single, jarring moment that began a decline in quality from which the show never recovered. In short, the show was past its best. But it was still great!
As per my previous post, the shield could also be symptomatic of lazy writing as less effort seemed to be going into the design of the dungeon.
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I think my interpretation of jumping the shark would be the moment at which the viewer feels "This is no longer the same show I fell in love with" - that the fundamental tone or focus has shifted in such a way that it's almost a whole different programme, and you wouldn't have become a fan if it had been like this to begin with.
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The trouble is that jumping the shark refers to a single moment and shows don’t often suddenly become completely different in tone or focus – it tends to happen gradually.
I think my interpretation can be summed up as follows:
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It is a single moment/event within the programme (rather than a feeling in the viewer);
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That moment has to be jarring – a WTF moment, if you will;
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This WTF moment is a catalyst for an irrecoverable decline in quality;
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The moment itself is not necessarily related to the speed of decline or the eventual base level of quality (which may still be relatively high).
The episode of Happy Days after the JTS one was probably watched and enjoyed by millions of long term fans – but the seeds of decline had been planted.
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The trouble is that jumping the shark refers to a single moment and shows don’t often suddenly become completely different in tone or focus
They do in my experience, usually due to a change in writer / producer, departure of a key character, or introduction of a new character that changes everything.
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Just read David's response to my article.
Firstly, a very entertaining read (as all David's posts are) and full of valid points.
Thank you, Chris. It's the lack of a single correct answer that makes this a worthwhile discussion, so maybe someone will contribute a third article in time.
For reference, Chris' article is here and mine is here.
Hobgoblin, you make an interesting point about not intending "jumping the shark" to be synonymous with "became rubbish".
Although I had always made this connection, now that you mention it, I suppose that it's not entirely true. I think it was supposed to represent the point at which the writing became so unrealistic as to be ridiculous, i.e. the writing became lazy.
In any case, I'm curious as to how you define it
and same question to Drassil.
Jumping the shark is a convenient term but it is indeed possible to misuse it. In my experience, the general sense of a programme's irredeemable decline can be felt at the time, but associating that with a particular moment is more easily done in retrospect, especially after the series has ended. I don't actually remember how I felt in 1993 when I first watched the SIGHT spell being cast, but then I hadn't heard of the concept of jumping the shark in 1993 either.
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I don't think it did, at all technology chnged so did KM however series 8 was totally different and whilst i really enjoy it now, it might have been a bit much graphics and character wise changes the graphics would have been enough and maybe fewer less characters in it would have been whoah for the viewers
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Well as I kid I probably didn't start watching until series 4, or 5 (they're quite similar) at least that my early memory of it back then.. and so the eye shield to me was just the norm, part of the show and i can't imaging it without it to be honest.
Certainly did not decline in quality that's for sure.
Season 8 might have been the weakest, i didn't like the reach want, the hew helmet was a bit rubbish, the life force pie was naff, and the season was far too short. But even still it was nice having it back inside the dungeon.
I think KM left the air before it was past it's sell by date.
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Drassil wrote:
It's the lack of a single correct answer that makes this a worthwhile discussion, so maybe someone will contribute a third article in time.
I suppose what we really need is someone defending the eye shield or at least explaining why they think the show got better after S3 - judging by the FB comments these people exist!
Wombstar wrote:
the eye shield to me was just the norm, part of the show and i can't imaging it without it to be honest.
So out of interest - how are you finding watching S1/2 in comparison to the later series?
I often wonder how I'd feel about KM if I started watching at S4. I'm pretty sure I'd have really liked it but would it have the special place in my heart it now does? The fact is that if KM got cancelled after S3 I'd still be here on this forum chewing the fat about the best show of all time!
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I like the early series, I seen them several times, but my association with knightmare was always with the eye shields and lord fear.. as a kid I didn't know it any other way.. (at least I don't remember seeing them) So when I watch the early stuff it doesn't feel like 'home'
Only thing I really disliked about the later ones was the dragon.. the rides just took forever.
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For me, the replacement of Pickle with Majida was the moment when Knightmare jumped the shark. I felt that Pickle and Treguard was a perfect combination whereas I found Majida overbearing and felt that she altered the dynamic in the ante-chamber. I don't want to upset any Majida fans though - it's just a personal opinion!
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"When did Knightmare jump the shark"?
For me, this is a no-brainer. When I was 14 I saw the shark being jumped right before my eyes and I was very disappointed. It happened in series 4 when they suddenly went from using beautiful, atmospheric painted backdrops to instead using…
ARTIFICIALLY-COLOURED PHOTOS (I presume they were photos, though the quality was so poor it wouldn't surprise me if they were interlaced video stills).
All at once, the series went from beautiful to ugly. It went from exciting rooms you wanted to explore, to inhospitable rooms that just looked disgusting and (no pun intended) "nightmarish". And to be more specific, I will give you 6 exact reasons why I hated the photos…
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To me, it looked REALLY cheap and obviously done to save money.
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Using real photos completely removed all the sense of fantasy. It just looked grotty and imperfect. All the romance was gone.
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The illustrations had always been beautifully lit, making them look dynamic and exciting. But the real-world locations (especially outdoor ones) were just plain and looked totally "flat".
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While rooms had traditionally had natural, earthy colours, they were replaced with weird, unnatural colours (ie a LOT of purple). Yes, series 3 had started to use more vivid colours here and there, but it still always looked like you were on planet earth. When we get to series 4 though, suddenly everything was purple and looked like an alien world.
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The images also looked "unnatural" in a different sense, not because of the choice of colours, but the way the photos had been altered. Now with a lot of care and skill it is possible to turn a photo of a castle purple and make it still look natural and realistic. However, when you do this crudely (and I'm not blaming the designer as I'm sure resources were limited) you just end up with something that looks artificial. It just looks like a bad effect.
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Finally, the way the colour had been digitally changed drastically reduced the quality of the image. They used limited palettes, resulting in HEAVY loss of detail, colour banding, and general "murkiness". It just looked incredibly cheap and nasty, even to my 14-year-old eyes (and I dare say the eyes of most viewers).
I LIKED THE DWARF TUNNELS
Now for the record, I must say the dwarf tunnels (and mine cart) in series 3 never bothered me in the slightest, in fact I really liked them. So why did I like dwarf tunnels? My reasons are:
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I adored the use of sound effect and music in them. It was incredibly atmospheric, and when they were first introduced I found them VERY exciting.
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They were not "the actual game", just brief interludes to give a little variety and relief between rooms. (Had they played a larger part, I might have started to find them objectionable.)
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They may not have been David Rowe illustrations, but they were still "computer illustrations" of a kind—as opposed to grotty real-life imagery.
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The dwarf tunnels were visually attractive: clean, clear, and not washed out. They may not have used "natural tones" but at least the colours didn't look false.
So for me there was a definitive point when Knightmare really went downhill, and that was series 4. I am not saying I don't like the series after this, of course not. But the photos really spoilt it for me.
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