Series 8 Appreciation Week
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This is the hardest series for me to rate - I wouldn't know how to mark it out of 10, because I love certain aspects while hating others. A middling score would neither reflect how bad nor how good it is.
Without a doubt, Series 8 brings quite a few major and unwelcome changes, and it's probably for the best that Knightmare ended before it went any further in this direction. But despite all its faults, I'm grateful that Series 8 exists. Without it, we wouldn't have Stiletta (probably the show's best ever female cast member) or Snapper-Jack (second only to Lord Fear in my list of all-time favourite characters). We wouldn't have Marblehead and the Mire World, or entertaining teams like Nathan's and Daniel's. I wish many things had been done differently in S8, but I still genuinely enjoy watching most of it.
Totally redesigning the antechamber set was a bad idea - I guess the viewing pool is OK, but overall it looks cold and uncomfortable, not somewhere I'd want to make myself at home. (Why the sudden aversion to seats this year?!) The watchers are made to feel even less welcome by Treguard completely ignoring us now - heck, he can't even be bothered to summon and dismiss the teams any more, leaving it to Majida instead. And I don't know why he suddenly starts making silly gestures whenever a quest begins or ends. On a more positive note, Majida is considerably less annoying than she was in S7.
Not content with replacing the famous helmet - and they carried on using those unpopular Sight potions - they now decided to screw around with the knapsack as well, so all of a sudden it's used for carrying clue objects (which means there is no clear reason why they still can't take more than two). The change is made so they can introduce the latest gimmick of the Reach wand, which isn't very well thought-out and is mostly used for those interminably tedious rune lock puzzles. Meanwhile, life force has become so unimportant that they no longer bother with a death animation, and a crappy pie is deemed sufficient illustration of the dungeoneer's health status. How did it come to this?!
Don't like the lazy episode introductions that tell you nothing about the team's current task or what they're carrying. Don't know why they got rid of the nice status bar either. Don't like the full-screen spellbook animation when they cast a spell.
Probably because the series was much shorter than usual, the quests have to be more rushed, with a very short Level 1 and sometimes no Level 2! This makes them feel like much less of an achievement. That final episode, where Oliver is choosing Level 3 clue objects literally 10 minutes after starting his quest, underlines what a joke the whole thing has become. And Level 3 is the only one that's had any real effort put into its appearance - Level 1 looks awful, with those ugly turquoise rooms that all look much the same, not remotely realistic and lacking any sort of atmosphere. If you want a straightforward dungeon environment, David Rowe's artwork was so much better. I don't think much of the new dwarf tunnels either, they're not half as creepy as the real tunnels used in the last two series. And it's a bit weird how FLOAT spells are needed for the trapdoors now, when the old wellways and trapdoors were perfectly safe to jump down!
It's not a good year for Lord Fear, with his unflattering new look and weird over-caffeinated behaviour, though he does still have his funny moments (and I think this may be Lissard's best series). Paul Valentine's characters are slightly underused, but at least they had a chance to bring back Motley after the mistake of dropping him for Series 7.
The contestants are a bit of a mixed bag - Nathan's team are one of the best ever IMO, and Daniel & chums are bright and amusingly memorable, but then we also have Mike's annoying piss-takers, Rebecca's deafening screamers, and several teams that couldn't understand the most basic of clues. Blah. Good job the programme (mostly) returned to its legendary harshness, where picking up the wrong clue object WOULD mean death! And riddles came back, and this time they DID have to get the right answers - much better than the nonsense with the Brollachan.
I like how there's lots of new stuff in Series 8; it's just a shame it's all crammed in with no time to explore it properly. Miremen, Miretrogs, Snapdragons and Skeletrons are all good ideas, albeit not executed as well as they might have been. The subplot with the red dragon is fairly interesting but never resolved. I quite like Honesty Bartram (his two scenes with Nathan are hilarious) but then he just disappears and is never seen or mentioned again. Not that keen on Maldame, but at least she has more personality than Greystagg did.
Oh yeah and... TOO MANY FIREBALLS! The lack of variety is a massive weakness of this series. (Though having read Pooka's review, he makes a good point about the deaths all being different.)
In summary, there's a great deal wrong with it but I like it anyway, because the things it gets right are brilliant. And with its necessarily fast pace, I'd say it makes for better viewing than the yawn-fest that is Series 4.
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Since when did Knightmare have a short cut in place in previous series?
Barry apparently took a shortcut in his quest at the end of Series 7 - although I'm not entirely sure if it was that big a shortcut, since he was in Level 3 at the time and ended up in... er, Level 3. I do have to wonder if it was a shortcut at all, really!
Worse memory is after the finial episode they advertised series 9 and wanted applicants, I was one of those applicants who revived that disappointing letter printed on blue paper confirming there would be no series 9. Shattered dreams!!
Yes, I was one of those too!
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Since when did Knightmare have a short cut in place in previous series?
Barry apparently took a shortcut in his quest at the end of Series 7 - although I'm not entirely sure if it was that big a shortcut, since he was in Level 3 at the time and ended up in... er, Level 3. I do have to wonder if it was a shortcut at all, really!
Yes there was that! But like you said, Barry ended up in level 3, where he was originally! I guess it looked good at the time and did fit in as it was the last episode.
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Yeah I don't think the short cut In series 7 made a big impact, might have just saved a room or two. The fact they were already in level 3 it doesn't bother me, it's skipping huge chunks of the dungeon I disliked.
I'm reading a lot of hate for the pool but I quite liked it, it was better than the tiny screen hidden in a chest, and again I think things would get repetitive if they kept the magic mirror, I enjoyed the new look.
Same with the new dwarf tunnels, a nice throwback to series 3 in some ways.
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I was wondering if anyone knows how the graphics (fireball et al) were generated in the last series? Did they continue using an Amiga (as per the status bar in series 6)?
Also (holds up nerd license for public verification), this old citation from knightmare.com is missing:
http://www.knightmare.com/club/1-2/p3.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knightmare#cite_note-KMClubAmiga-11
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The Wikipedia link needs updating to this one (the Amiga quote is at the bottom):
http://www.knightmare.com/fan-made/fanzines/quest/1140-quest-123
I don't remember reading anything about how the graphics in Series 8 were generated, but there's some info about the software used for Series 7 here.
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Here's how I'd summarise my thoughts on Series 8:
It has plenty of good ideas (and its fair share of bad ones too) but doesn't have time to implement them and trying to squeeze everything in makes the series end up being a bit of a mess. Then the whole shortcut scenario makes for a rather disappointing end and further adds to the pandemonium.
That said, I do like the return to dungeon dimensions and the idea of Linghorm, Marblehead, the Mireworld etc. but it's definitely my least favourite series.
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A few brief thoughts:
Also my least favourite series. I'm one of those who feel it was aimed at a younger audience than previous series, though the differences are possibly in tone and style rather than content. I was 13 when it was first broadcast and it was the first time I felt 'maybe I'm getting a little old for this.' It just 'feels' more like a kids show than the other series.
For example, I cannot stand the cringe inducing Snapper-Jack - even though he was bringing riddling back to the show he's basically the Jar Jar binks of the KM universe! Just one of several editorial decisions which were pitched a tad too young. The kid-friendly pie lifeforce being another main culprit.
The reach wand was an appalling idea - the rune lock was tedious viewing (I'm always reminded of team 5 who were so useless trying to get out of the rune lock room that the pursuing goblins were 'forced' to stand staring at the dungeoneer for 5 minutes before she made it to the door).
For a very successful, established programme the series has a terrible, rushed, 'piloty' feel to it. The environments lack personality (though I appreciate the return to dungeon roots) and it's a great shame that gameplay mechanics break down badly at the end of the series - not sure this was necessary.
The best thing I can say for S8 is that is makes me slightly less sad the show was cancelled when it was! It could have turned out to be a transitional series but it could also have been a fatal step on a slippery slope towards KMVR style content. Guess we'll never know...
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Personally I found the first two series to have a much more childish tone than the later ones.
I agree actually. There's a lot of silliness in series 1 and 2. There are some episodes that I really struggle to watch.
The short cut. I genuinely don't mind this existing, really - but we missed out on a Level 2 for Dunstan. I've seen Mystara saying in several places that his team were told that if they didn't take it, they may not have been able to finish Level 3 in time, so they kind of had to. I'd have liked to see this team take on all three levels (and, unlike many people, I still think they would have won had they done so!)
Actually, when I discussed this with Tim recently, he agreed. Our strength was in being able to follow the narrative and in being good at logic/knowledge. Our weakness was in coordination. However, as Tim pointed out, the corridor of blades is the most unforgiving puzzle they had when it came to coordination, so if you survived that, there's not much else they could throw at you. His view was that, if we had time, we would have gotten through L2 fairly easily.
Shortcut - although I believe Dunstan deserved to win, introducing the shortcut did annoy me. Since when did Knightmare have a short cut in place in previous series? To me, it dumbed it down.
Not sure I agree with that. If L2 and the CoB have a comparable mortality rate, I don't think it can be dumbing things down to replace one with the other. It does become more polarised, but in general it would lead to the series being faster paced, because you'd be killing teams off much more quickly.
It's not a good year for Lord Fear, with his unflattering new look and weird over-caffeinated behaviour
I have to say, I love Lord Fear in this season - both personality and style. He seems so much darker to me, and far nastier.
Totally redesigning the antechamber set was a bad idea - I guess the viewing pool is OK, but overall it looks cold and uncomfortable, not somewhere I'd want to make myself at home. (Why the sudden aversion to seats this year?!)
The lack of seats is basically a function of the height of the pool. You'd need very tall stools to be able to sit at it comfortably. Add the fact that you need to lean forward to see the monitor in the pool and it would be uncomfortable for the advisors.
The height of the pool is a function of the monitor, which is big and long and has to point upwards so that Treguard and Majida could see the dungeoneer from their much higher position on the second level of the stage.
THAT was a function of the entrance gate to the dungeon and needing to be able to film a dungeoneer walking down steps to enter the dungeon.
As I recall, modification was required to the set because the series was shortened. There was less time for set-up and so a simpler set had to be built.
In addition, the seats are, as you'll all realise by now, completely superfluous. Filming a room never took longer than about 5 minutes and the rest of the time you'd be sat in the green room. They really do nothing other than offer a visual suggestion that the team are sat in the antechamber throughout their entire quest, without a break.
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The lack of seats is basically a function of the height of the pool. You'd need very tall stools to be able to sit at it comfortably. Add the fact that you need to lean forward to see the monitor in the pool and it would be uncomfortable for the advisors.
The height of the pool is a function of the monitor, which is big and long and has to point upwards so that Treguard and Majida could see the dungeoneer from their much higher position on the second level of the stage.
THAT was a function of the entrance gate to the dungeon and needing to be able to film a dungeoneer walking down steps to enter the dungeon.
As I recall, modification was required to the set because the series was shortened. There was less time for set-up and so a simpler set had to be built.
In addition, the seats are, as you'll all realise by now, completely superfluous. Filming a room never took longer than about 5 minutes and the rest of the time you'd be sat in the green room. They really do nothing other than offer a visual suggestion that the team are sat in the antechamber throughout their entire quest, without a break.
Fair enough. It just doesn't work for me as a viewer... the old antechamber was so familiar and welcoming, and I don't get the same feeling at all from the redesign. The dungeon gate seems needlessly clunky and I don't like the teams just wandering out through a door when they leave - it's a lot less magical than before! (Not keen on Lord Fear's constant pacing around at Marblehead either, I preferred it when he had somewhere to sit and scheme.)
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Yeah, walking off into a forrest seemed rather weird.
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Shortcut - although I believe Dunstan deserved to win, introducing the shortcut did annoy me. Since when did Knightmare have a short cut in place in previous series? To me, it dumbed it down.
Not sure I agree with that. If L2 and the CoB have a comparable mortality rate, I don't think it can be dumbing things down to replace one with the other. It does become more polarised, but in general it would lead to the series being faster paced, because you'd be killing teams off much more quickly.
I understand what you are saying. But as a fan watching it since series 4 at the time when I was a kid, it struck a chord with me. I was thinking, hang on, there were never any short cuts in previous series. Even in series 8, we were only made aware of it during your quest. I know you and the team can only play the game presented to you. If the short cut was made known at the start of the series, then your point of the series being faster paced, I would agree with.
Were the previous teams before you made aware of the shortcut? Just to let you know, I'm not having a go, I do think Dunstan deserved to win. My gripe is with the shortcut in general.
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No idea if they were aware of it or not.
The shortcut was mentioned in our adventurer's code, which we received before we'd even played a single room. But then, we might have been the first team to receive that specific version of the code.
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No idea if they were aware of it or not.
The shortcut was mentioned in our adventurer's code, which we received before we'd even played a single room. But then, we might have been the first team to receive that specific version of the code.
That's fair enough. You can only play what's in front of you.
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But the next team also skipped level 2 it would appear Dunstan and co should have had enough time to complete their quest with level 2. The last team still did about one and a half levels, this should equal Dunstan's level 2 or not far off, So I don't think it was necessary, they could have cut a room to two out or even a spy glass scene to allow time. The Blade were the only real challenge.
But I reckon it was done to allow one of the last two teams a chance too win. Had Dunstan died in the blades the final team probably would have won instead.
It's certainly not the first time a team has been giving a lifeline at least it was a bit more challenging than that series 2 win But it just shows the series was way too short, and I can understand why they needed at least one winner, would have been quite a fitting end to the series has no one won.
Maybe we should have a topic about which winner had the toughest quest, be interesting to really compare them in detail.
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But the next team also skipped level 2 it would appear Dunstan and co should have had enough time to complete their quest with level 2. The last team still did about one and a half levels, this should equal Dunstan's level 2 or not far off, So I don't think it was necessary, they could have cut a room to two out or even a spy glass scene to allow time. The Blade were the only real challenge.
But there's no way of predicting that.
Different teams take different times in each room, each room lasts a different amount of time, NPC interactions vary all those times, different rooms take different times to set up, your players can only legally be in the studio for a fixed period of time each day, everyone needs to eat and have breaks, your cast may have other commitments, you may need indeterminate numbers of pickup shots after each room is filmed, technical things go wrong, you only have a fixed period of time for filming.....
Then there are other considerations like you want to avoid having two team intros in one episode or avoid bringing a team on to play for 3 minutes.
So whether it could have been done or not, with hindsight, is completely irrelevant. At the time, they didn't think there was time.
But I reckon it was done to allow one of the last two teams a chance too win. Had Dunstan died in the blades the final team probably would have won instead.
No, that's wrong I'm afraid. No teams were "allowed" to win.
It's certainly not the first time a team has been giving a lifeline at least it was a bit more challenging than that series 2 win But it just shows the series was way too short, and I can understand why they needed at least one winner, would have been quite a fitting end to the series has no one won.
I am not really sure what you mean by 'lifeline'. No teams had a free pass and all second chances resulted in automatic later death according to Tim.
as for needing a winner....there are two series with no winners. Why do you feel they would need one in a shortened series?
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But there's no way of predicting that.
I know that, but in hindsight it might have been possible, it's all I'm saying.
No, that's wrong I'm afraid. No teams were "allowed" to win.
I never said that, I said "allowed the chance" because as you said without the short cut there wouldn't have been time to compete a full quest, the short cut allowed both teams a chance.
No teams had a free pass
winners regarding the Troll at the end of series 7, they never even picked up the quest object, same with the red dragon finial, would have been awkward had they both lost. lol
Why do you feel they would need one in a shortened series?
If they weren't pushing for a winner then why included a short cut in the first place? It was done because time was short and it was the only way to get a possible winner.
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No teams had a free pass
winners regarding the Troll at the end of series 7, they never even picked up the quest object, same with the red dragon finial, would have been awkward had they both lost. lol
I believe that Tim has addressed the first of these...
As I recall the team progressed as normal except that they were forced to pursue the hammer rather than the shield. The team then won (passed the final challenge) and so the eye shield became the shield of justice. In other words, had it not been for the irrelevant troll story, the team would have retrieved the shield.
According to Tim, IF the team had failed the final quest, they would have simply filmed the necessary bits to finish the story and return the hammer and the team would not then have earned the shield (ie have won).
I'm not sure what you mean by "free pass" because in every quest, the team was only declared as a winning team if they deserved it and had fairly earned it. Whatever "forced" filming was necessary to complete the story is irrelevant to the gameplay.
The same would appear to apply to the dragon.
Similarly in our quest, the last 1-2 scenes are fixed. We won as soon as we had overcome LF. The rest is just window dressing for the story.
Why do you feel they would need one in a shortened series?
If they weren't pushing for a winner then why included a short cut in the first place? It was done because time was short and it was the only way to get a possible winner.
As explained elsewhere, according to Tim, it was done to add an element of player choice into the game by allowing teams to gamble.
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