Series 5 Episode 14
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I've really enjoyed reading this thread with everyone's opinions on how level 2 could have been different . I'm afraid I don't have any detailed analysis to offer, but my tuppence worth
My reading of the scroll was just to take the silver, if it was a cryptic clue about spells then I completely missed it too. The choice of the clue objects between the feather and the fool on a stick isn't that easy; if Treguard had done some hinting maybe about how Motley had helped them before so could prove useful if they helped him out again then fair enough (maybe this did happen and never made it into the final edit), but given that choice I'm not sure what I would have taken. I think the painful part of this is that the team so nearly took it but then didn't. I think Chris is judged a bit harshly in this; everyone complains when the dungeoneers just do what they're told and have to be prompted to say and do anything and then when this lad has his own opinions on their quest it's his fault for taking the wrong item shrugs.
I hadn't thought about if the spells were the right thing to buy from JS before, it's a very interesting point. However it is quite in character for JS to attempt to sell the team something of no use and then have to be pressed before he offers them something that they do need. I think the CHANGE and SWITCH spells would have done exactly the same thing and Chroblin was meant to happen, so the main issue to me is how would they get out of it and how would they get the firestone. We know that Motley could have changed them back. I'm also going to speculate that maybe, since they were returning to where they started from in level 2, they might come back through into that room at the end of the level and by that point have the magic they needed to free the gem. I know it's a horrible idea because the only was is meant to be forwards, but this level 2 story was based upon the awful concept of returning back to where they started from. Throughout the whole of level 2 I did keep thinking that it would have solved all their problems if they'd managed to hold onto their firestone from level 1.... (I do know you can't keep objects between levels ).
I didn't really like this incarnation of level 2 at all. Returning to the beginning of the level grates against everything the adventurer's code is meant to say. Chroblin was funny for about the first 2 minutes, then I felt a bit sorry for the team who seemed to have one of the most drawn out deaths in the shows history and one that made them seem a lot sillier then they were. A lot of the younger teams have seemed to get a lot more hints then this bunch did. Have to agree with Drassil (albeit over 2 years later) that this level 2 felt like it was made for a different quest, but seemed a bit too tempting for the production team to use. In my mind this again backs up that the dungeoneer would have turned into a goblin no matter what magic or item they'd bought from JS.
The blocker death is one of my favourites from this season I remember it from when I was little and being suspicious of innocent looking walls for a while afterwards!
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I honestly don't think they were ever supposed to get the firestone. The entire goblin plot was so obviously planned in advance (including Chris choosing to "stay a goblin" - like S8 Daniel having to insist on using the Fearsome potion), I'm pretty sure the firestone and the similar spells were there purely to get them into that bizarre situation. I have no doubt the same thing would have happened if they'd bought SWITCH instead - the illusion of choice simply provides an explanation for this strange "accident", as the team and viewers will assume they must have picked the wrong spell. In fact their only mistake was not taking Motley's stick to gain his help, which is a little unfair without any clues, but then again I personally felt it was quite an obvious item to take. Has that thing ever been on a clue table for no reason?
The scroll is definitely confusing, though (as so many of them are!), and of course there's no way of knowing how they would have proceeded to Level 3. I can only assume Elita was mistaken or lying about Smirky being their only option (again, all part of the elaborate setup for the goblin incident). Perhaps Motley would have told them where to find the Descender or something.
The theory about needing to buy the potion is interesting, but I don't think it's right. It just seems to be JS doing his usual routine of trying to sell them useless things first (thus further convincing them to buy a plot device... I mean spell), and the "impurity" bit makes it a fairly obvious red herring. As I said above, I'm sure the production team were determined to show off the goblin trick and everything else was simply leading up to it.
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Having rewatched this, I'm pretty sure Chris wasn't supposed to win. It makes me wonder, though, what SWITCH would have done. My guess - although it's a rudimentary one - is that SWITCH may have switched the properties of the ice block - from solid to liquid or something - and allowed the team to get the firestone. That's the only use of it I can think of. However, if they did do that and it worked that way, the whole subplot with Chris being a goblin, and the subsequent scene(s) with Mace (and Motley) would be virtually eliminated. So I fail to see how they could have got the firestone!
As many people have already said in this thread, Motley's role in the quest would have been to give the password, and/or effect a change back to the human form - although nevertheless, they still didn't have the firestone. Maybe it was a red herring, or as I said, maybe they just weren't meant to win! A bit mean of the production team to do this, as it was a mystifying Level 2 all the way through, really!
Sad to see Mace go. It was a great scene and even a hearken back to Series 4 with the lizard fiasco, as David points out - Mace seems the continuity cop of this entire series, actually, having mentioned Merlin in its earlier stages. Trivia Fact-O-Time: out of a poll we held at the RPG Series 7 filming, Mace was voted our favourite character, judging by the amount of times he was placed on our sheet (we used AV, happily enough) - perhaps the only PTB character to be in our top three! And talking of top threes, he was my third choice - always has been one of my favourites. A very good end scene, if he had to go at all.
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As I said in a post earlier this year: 'The whole goblin transformation 'subplot' seems too unique and detailed for it to have been merely a 50-50 possibility; and a scene where a dungeoneer enters a Level 2 room, casts [a spell] to de-ice a firestone, picks it up then walks out, seems too straightforward'.
If I'd thought of it at the time, I would have added: And besides, I doubt the production team would have sought to repeat what we had already seen with the Shield at the end of Ben's quest, where it was only justifiable as a sort of post-final-encounter formality.
A few thoughts about Impurity. (By Calvin Klein.) Scaramonger's description of it as a goblin deterrent implies to me that there would have been a goblin element to its effect, i.e. the same as the spells. The recommendation to sprinkle it, when by definition a potion should be drunk, could also be taken as evidence that it's a suspicious item. The drinking of potions by dungeoneers had its tentative introduction with the bizarrely labelled Shield in Series 6 (unless we count Dickon's anti-poison in Series 4), before Knightmare went potion potty in Series 7. Also, if we consider the consequences of the team buying Impurity, should we not also consider what would have happened if the team had bought the sword?
On reflection, I'm not entirely at ease with the idea of a jester somehow being able to undo cast-locked Opposition magic (in addition to all the other saving-the-day that the team's predicament seemingly demanded of him), even though Brother Mace presented it as the only option. This is beyond anything we saw Motley do. He is a man who made it clear in his first series that he wanted "no truck" with the Opposition, and had enough trouble avoiding their schemes as it was!
Anyway, after thinking myself into and out of knots over this for years, I've come up with a rundown of how I wish the latter part of this quest had gone.
At the end of Level 1, Chris reaches the Gate Tower, as per Lord Fear's spyglass remark. The Gatemaster allows him into the Travelling Gate with instructions on how many floors to count before commanding it to halt.
Chris finds the Level 2 clue room. As in various other S5 quests, there are three clue objects and not four. Reading the clue scroll, the team decide to take the silver (as implied by "trade") and the green gem ("fair trade and "no robbery" suggesting some kind of straight swap of gemstones may be possible). The spyglass scene includes an explanation of the frozen firestone, the need for strong magic to free it and the dungeoneer's need for it.
Chris meets Julius Scaramonger and the encounter plays out as before.
Chris finds the frozen firestone and the scene runs as it did.
Chris meets Skarkill again. In a moment of continuity platinum, he is nursing stings and still has the firestone he took from Chris on Level 1. Chris gets to put his goblin guise to use as he thought he might, chatting with the unsuspecting Goblin Master and persuading him to swap gemstones. It ends with the amazing situation of a team having acquired the same clue object twice over. (Thank you to Selphie for inspiring this with her earlier comment.)
Chris meets Brother Mace and must explain who he really is. He has to answer the questions Mace would have asked him on Level 1. Mace confesses that his "Staff of Saint Smasher" in fact has some magic in that he may be able to use to banish the cast-locked spell. It's déja vu as a monk strikes a dungeoneer with a staff, but this time the outcome is far less lethal, and Chris' goblin form is "dismissed". Treguard regards the staff, or "mace" as he calls it, with great interest. At some point during the encounter, Brother Mace offers Chris the grapes rather than waiting for him to ask, thereby ensuring that his final words on Knightmare are not "well, you might as well, yes".
As in Quest 3, there is no Level 2 Blocker. (It may only have been in Chris' already-complex L2 because of his losing status anyway.)
Chris tackles the colour-coded causeway. If he succeeds, Smirkenorff is waiting for him through the next portal, and will fly him to Level 3 for a firestone.
I feel better for writing that.
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I love the advisors' bemusement over Chris wanting to stay a goblin, especially the one who goes "Fine, if you wanna be like that"!
"The score doesn't matter, Pickle, it's playing the game that counts!" Yeah right Treguard, since when did you believe that?!
Having a flight sequence into Wolfenden throws up a couple of continuity goofs... the shield and boxes under the Market Hall are clearly not there when Smirky lands, but have appeared by the time Duncan walks over to them! (Also the square is deserted, yet a couple of minutes later Julius Scaramonger is serving a customer there.)
Not sure why Pickle says "There, master, I told you it was risky!" and makes them hurry out after using the spyglass. There was no indication that Lord Fear had noticed them spying at all!
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I wonder if the "fair trade" clue meant they were supposed to take the green gem, and use the silver to buy the SWITCH spell, which would swap the gems round so that Christopher had the firestone and the green one was left in the block of ice. It kind of makes sense, but then it also seems unlikely, because the goblin transformation effect would have gone unused (presumably that was the "trap" mentioned in the spyglass scene), and they wouldn't have been able to pick up Motley's bauble or had any reason to call him. So who would have told them the Blocker password? Or would they not have encountered the Blocker in that case?
It really is weird how the Descender is apparently not an option for changing levels in this quest, especially after Lord Fear was expecting them to reach the Gate Tower in Level 1, only for them to fly on Smirkenorff instead. How is Aesandre getting in and out of Level 2 to set her trap, if she walks instead of travelling by magic?! I can't imagine Smirky giving her a lift.
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When Chris becomes a goblin and speaks in that hilarious high-pitched voice, is that Chris' voice that has been modified by the production team or has it been dubbed by someone else?
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It sounds like Chris. Knightmare was first and foremost an adventure for the contestants, so the production team wouldn't have wanted to cut one of them out completely for an extended period - even if, for practical reasons, they couldn't put Chris himself in the goblin costume.
I've been rewatching and rethinking this clear-as-mud episode recently. There will be some new opinions to share in due course.
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I've been rewatching and rethinking this clear-as-mud episode recently. There will be some new opinions to share in due course.
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When the team read the scroll telling them that 'Fair trade is no robbery', the only information they had was that they needed magic and a red gem. On the table was a green gem. They should have taken it. Not doing so put them in losing status.
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Aesandre had set a trap and Julius Scaramonger was part of that trap (whether by bribery or coercion). To play that part, he had to sell Chris something that would impede or doom the quest.
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Scaramonger gave a description of the Potion of Impurity that indicated it would not meet the team's needs:
"[You want] spells? Ooh, magic ... you don't want to bother with that stuff ... I would be doing you a very big disfavour if I sold you any of that stuff ... let me sell you this Potion of Impurity."
Had they been swayed towards it (or indeed towards the sword that Scramonger also offered), Treguard or Pickle would have swayed them back.
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When the team reached the frozen firestone and cast the spell, it would have swapped the gems around AND turned him into a goblin. As we know from Tim Child's articles and interviews, he had sworn off the 'wastage' of earlier series and the Chroblin scenario (as Billy Hicks called it) was not going to go unused.
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The material written for Brother Mace (i.e. recalling his lizard experience) is too good for it to have been optional. I can't accept that the scene wouldn't have happened, but I suspect that he wouldn't have said all the Motley stuff. Perhaps he'd have turned Chris back himself, though the idea of any non-magical character undoing cast-locked sorcery is not easy to imagine.
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To get the most out of the Chroblin-not-in-losing-status situation, perhaps there'd have been an encounter with an oblivious Skarkill - or with Sylvester Hands, who was supposedly on Chris' trail in Level 1 but was not seen. (Indeed, we saw Hands fooled by a disguised dungeoneer Chris one series later ("Mrs. Witchy") and by another disguised dungeoneer in Series 8 (Daniel and the Fearsome potion).)
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I suspect there'd have been no Blocker encounter. Even if there had been and Chris hadn't survived, Treguard wouldn't have said that Motley would have given them the password. To do so would have been a false post-mortem, like Series 4 Quest 5 where he implausibly suggested they needed magic to cross the Block & Tackle.
In having a dungeoneer unexpectedly turned into and locked into a goblin form, the production team had come up with a great idea. It's a shame that they didn't allow themselves, the questing team and the watchers to get more out of it. The flawed 'disembark Smirkenorff to re-embark Smirkenorff' premise and the harsh four-clue-object table detracted from it.
As for the clue scroll accompanying those four clue objects, it is so ambiguous that the team may well have been better off without it. No other scroll came close in unfair vagueness: I recorded all 70+ in the Interactive Knightmare Lexicon here to prove it. For example, Barry's team in Series 7 had 'Rock and Roll, hot and Slow!' to help them choose two clue objects - from a smaller selection (3) - on a lower level (3).
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To clarify:
The scroll was definitely no real help at all.
They needed the silver to trade with Scaramonger to get the spell and most definitely not the potion or anything else.
They also needed the Gem to CHANGE with them upon receiving said spell and encountering the Firestone.
So...Motley and his folderol wasn't really needed - perhaps only persuasion instead - and brought in only to throw off the scent of a badly executed but well intentioned plot twist.
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Wow. Crazy ending to a quest! .
It seemed as tho team 7 had missed their chance with their clue choices at the end of episode 13.
Offered a choice of two spells by Scaramonger, but didn't think to ask what they did.... They bought the "CHANGE" spell.
*Going off on a tangent for a mo, noticeable that Scaramonger also had the original & genuine magic-shield for sale on his table. Would have been useful if the medusa was anywhere ahead. *
They tried to use the spell on the ice-bound firestone, but it turned Chris into a goblin.
Nice scene with Brother Mace (great reference to his experience in Dickon's quest) who wanted to help, but required Motley's marotte. Without it, they had to continue unaided....
As a result of all this they didn't get the password for the blocker. Tried to use the causeway combination instead and messed it up anyway. Gulp!
So many theories about what the correct choice of objects & spell would have been. It's difficult to decide, but i guess that Motley's marotte would have been an object to choose and that the green gem was a blind as they needed the red one.
Team 8 were a very slow paced team.
Chose the correct objects: silver & candle. Then used the silver to purchase the key from Scaramonger.
So far they appear to be a one-man quartet....
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*Going off on a tangent for a mo, noticeable that Scaramonger also had the original & genuine magic-shield for sale on his table. Would have been useful if the medusa was anywhere ahead. *
You can see the magic shield making cameo appearances all the way up to Series 8! (Though I won't say where exactly so as not to spoil future episodes for you. )
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