TAPE PIRACY
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Technically, no. It is illegal, I think.
Every now and then someone sells Knightmare illegally on eBay.
Yes, if it was allowed, I would buy a copy but I wouldn't be sure until I saw on this forum (or the main site) that there had been an official release. Otherwise, wouldn't risk it.
And the others will no doubt tell you about the hotlinking.
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What he is doing is not only illegal but unscrupulous. I think eBay should be obliged to take more responsibility for activities that they are effectively supporting and endorsing through such a relative lack of supervision. I guess it's the age-old business stance - no matter how morally reprehensible an act is, you can still get away with it if it isn't technically illegal.
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I'd advise Knightmare fans to help stop illegal auctions by reporting them.
Ebay contact page: http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/contact_us/_base/index.html
The auction number that's usually required for reporting auctions can be found in the top right of auction pages.
These unauthorised copies also mean that royalities towards actors and those involved in the production (eg. music) are not paid. It is also likely to affect any possibility of an official release as a decision for a release is purely commercial (ie. making money from releasing it).
At the end of the day I'm sure if there is an official release made you'll hear about it here via Tim Child and on the Knightmare home page. Until such a time it's safe to assume all sales of Knightmare episodes are unauthorised copies and therefore illegal.
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Just thought I'd give you an insight into the mind of the seller, by copy & pasting a reply...
Thank you - you are correct - I have misspelled Treguard, and the listing has been removed to reflect this.
As for the legality of the DVDs and ?defrauding? people of their royalties - I haven?t reproduced official discs that would defraud anyone.
Instead, what I am offering is a convenient way for viewers to watch the show. Just as Sky+ allows subscribers to record their shows to watch whenever they like, I am doing the same.
Until the show is released on DVD officially ? with contracts set up for the relevant people to receive royalties from DVD sales, then the sale of prerecorded material, albeit unofficially, will always be in demand. I?m simply offering a recording service and it?s up to customers if they want to buy or not. After all, Knightmare is still being shown so I?m not the only source for people to watch Knightmare.
I won?t get into an argument over the ethics of this on eBay. There are many forums on the web that can accommodate that. But I would sure be proud, if I were originally involved with the show. It?s a cult, and no amount of money can ever buy that.
Don?t worry though, as with every product, it has a life cycle. Demand will decline once it has been satisfied. Gone are the days when viewers would pay ridiculous amounts of money bidding for single discs.
Here?s a thought, have you ever wondered who are the people buying the discs? Past contestants? Actors?
Well anyhow it's one auction removed, though I suspect its removal may have been more due to a couple of reports to ebay rather than just a typo.
Another two auctions...
...the amusing thing about the first is that the seller was a hotlinker until this site took action. Now it hotlinks to significantly poorer quality pictures, hardly a gives a good impression to sellers.
In reguards to reporting, I've noticed it is more effective to report the member than the auction. By the time an auction report is read the auction may be over, whereas reporting the member allows you to list the individual auctions as well as helping to prevent further ones.
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It seems to me that as soon as one auction is taken down, another starts.
And why do people sell these things? Can't people make their own copies if they want to see KM so much?
All I can say is: I hope they hurry up and release an official DVD
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Sammy22… it seems cheeky of you that you would ask me to release the set to you for £10 and then go on about the legality of it all. I would have been more than happy to let one go for free.
DVD topics like this have been well discussed in the past and it seems pointless to go over and over what has been said and done.
However… the programme aside, I AM offering a service. Each Knightmare run lasts 6 months – equipment costs money, recording them takes time, authoring and burning takes time. Some viewers would find it more convenient to have all the episodes there so they can watch them in one go as opposed to getting up at 8am to watch them.
The feedback has been positive. Some customers have bought for their boyfriend’s; others have bought for husbands, and with every feedback makes me think archiving shows (not just Knightmare) is a worthwhile project.
ILLEGAL and ROYALTIES seems to come up a lot as an argument against the DVD trading. I haven’t reproduced anything that would hamper DVD sales – after all, how can I be harming sales of something that doesn’t exist? As for the royalties, I’m sure those involved are getting some from the Challenge reruns.
Until an official release is out, I guess your crusades to eradicate the trading seem pointless.
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knightmare4u, I would seriously advise that you read the DVD thread started by beveryafraid (aka Tim Child). You most certainly ARE reproducing something which hampers DVD sales - with readily-available pirate versions having flooded the market, any attempt at a legitimate release would be completely undermined. This means far less royalties, not just for the company but for the actors. By making and selling pirate DVDs, you are depriving them of income. This is equivalent to theft. That is why it is illegal and why you must stop what you're doing.
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I feel I must back up the comments made by Malefact above.
It would be a good idea to read what the creator of the show thinks of this kind of pratice, given his efforts to bring it to us in the first place I think it would, at the very least be reasonable to ask for his wishes to be upheld.
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…Sigh… here we go again.
An official DVD will never happen.
Granada have already made a killing by selling broadcast rights to Challenge. SO… they would be shooting themselves in the foot if they released the DVD. After all, who’s going to watch the Challenge reruns, if they already own the DVD? The ripple effect, then would be, how can Challenge make money from advertising if Knightmare is no longer popular? The bootleg DVDs aren’t hampering an official DVD release, it’s Granada. And since Tim Child was working for Anglia at the time, all IP would belong to Anglia/Granada.
The only thing left, is to ask for the understanding of the seller’s, which, with full respect, Kieran, you have done.
I archive shows (much to the annoyance of my girlfriend) as a hobby. I enjoy archiving shows that I feel will never see an official release. Cystal Maze, Fort Boyard, Gamesmaster, Bad Influence, Frank Skinner etc.
The only reason Knightmare is up for sale is because I know people still watch it. But I refuse to sit in front of my computer burning discs for everyone for free. I pay for Sky subscription, and so can other viewers. But if you want the episodes neatly presently, and edited, then you can pay for it.
I know on the surface, people think a lot of money is being made. I don’t think so. It’s TIME and effort that is being sold.
Knightmare is being rerun in January so anyone that wants to watch it, can install Sky or whatever.
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I also agree with Malefact on this, it is technically stealing, as it is the creator's material and no-one has rights to profit from pirating it, no exemptions.
DVD topics like this have been well discussed in the past and it seems pointless to go over and over what has been said and done.
And yes, they have been "well discussed" but obviously not well discussed enough because it is still an issue.
Edit: Who's to say an official DVD release definately won't happen? There is a large DVD market but still quite a lot of people do not have DVD players and will contimue to watch it on Challenge.
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Last post, ever.
At the end of the day, it's about making money...
Granada make more money selling broadcast rights to Challenge than they could ever from actual DVDs. Corporations are the enemy, not individuals.
I know for a fact that copies are just a stop gap. Fans would still buy the original if it surfaced.
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I'm going to repost Tim Child's post on the matter...
Good to see the offending problem is now absent from Ebay. In response to posts from Malefact and others, let's examine cause and effect on copying. Whilst VHS was the common form of video release, issuing an official version of the KM made programs was not considered economically feasible. Now that DVD is in full flood as a format, this has changed, because a DVD release can take place on a much smaller volume market. Granada Media (Anglia owners) are now genuinely interested in doing a DVD release combining all the KM made programmes + extras. **However they're still cautious as to how big the market is, and worse still they are concerned that much of the needs of that market have been already met by illegal tape copying, So you see - what you do does have an effect - and sometimes the opposite of what you intend. As to identifying the economic losers in copying, you may be right that it's close to a drop in the ocean for G Media. However, all the KM actors and artists whose work you admire are all potential
ly poorer by this operation. Most of them, whilst extremely talented, are far from rich. **
I will do my best to persuade G Media to release via DVD and support it with extra content - like the 1992 US Pilot - Lords of the Game, which none of you has seen.
bva
...to all who read the part marked in bold is of the most relevance.
Fans would still buy the original if it surfaced.
Prehaps, but as highlighted in Tim Child' post these ebay sales may mean that Knightmare doesn't get released.
At the end of the day, it's about making money...
So true, of both any official release and of unauthorised copies sold on ebay.
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knightmare4u, I would seriously advise that you read the DVD thread started by beveryafraid (aka Tim Child).
For info, the TAPE PIRACY thread has now been temporarily moved out of the Klassic Discussion archive into this section. It is locked and sticky. All I can suggest is those who are engaging in this practice please read the post by Tim Child (beveryafraid) and make your own minds up.
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If that wisdom still applies, then the most recent eBay DVD piracy thread, currently residing in General Discussion, could be merged with this one too. This matter is continually a hot topic (even if little else is hot at this late December moment!), and the fewer threads it sprawls across, the easier it is for us to keep track of others' views and refine our own.
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(Off-topic: Wouldn't it have been better & more sensible to contact a mod or admin (eg. via PM) about suggesting a topic merge. Contacting a mod means they are aware, just replying in the topic doesn't necessarily mean they'll read it. Merging is a good idea though.)
Anyway just thought I'd give a handy URL for reporting...
http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/unauthorized-copies.html
Incidentally this page states...
Do not list unauthorised (such as pirated, duplicated, backup, bootleg, and so forth) copies of software programmes, video games, music albums, movies, television programmes, or photographs on eBay.
Towards the bottom of the page is a link entitled "Report listing violations or problems with another eBay member." which takes you to a page where you can write a message along with reporting the auction.
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It was your suggestion originally, but you're welcome!
(Off-topic: Wouldn't it have been better & more sensible to contact a mod or admin (eg. via PM) about suggesting a topic merge. Contacting a mod means they are aware, just replying in the topic doesn't necessarily mean they'll read it. Merging is a good idea though.)
I was going by past experience. On previous occasions, when I've suggested in a thread that it be merged with another, the Moderators have responded unfailingly and efficiently. As far as I know, it's acceptable for me to use that method. (On one occasion, it even led to some fun banter between Mods and members.) I use private messaging for private matters; this wasn't one, as I felt (perhaps arrogantly) that I was speaking constructively on behalf of others as well as myself. It seems a tad contradictory to suggest to me via a public post that private messaging is a better and more sensible option.
![😕](https://www.knightmare.com/forum/assets/plugins/nodebb-plugin-emoji/emoji/android/1f615.png?v=d0be30d29f0 ":-\")
I'm not prepared to assume that our Mods don't read active threads. They deserve more credit than that. I have plenty of experience as a Knightmare forum moderator myself, so I know an effective KM Mod when I see one.
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Out of curiousity of how much it really costs to produce these DVDs I did a little research online...
First of all the cost of the DVD:
- Pack of 25 DVD-R (4.7Gb) no cases - £5.99
This works out to £0.24 per DVD
Next the cost of the cases, the type most DVDs come in:
- Pack of 100 DVD case - £6.59
This works out to approximately £0.07 per case
Onto other costs...
I am not including the 'cost of subscription', as generally speaking most people do not buy cable/satelitte subscription only to record a TV programme. Most buy the subscription so that they can also watch other programmes often on other channels, meaning that the recording of Knightmare is fairly irrelevant. Also if they have SKY+ they can set it to record in advance and if I recall it automatically cuts out the adverts.
Cost of time? In my opinion this is a very dubvious cost, after all it depends on how you are recording the episodes and what rate per hour you wish to charge for your time. Therefore I am not including the 'cost of time'.
So onto the final calculations...
Cost of DVD: £0.24 each
Cost of case: £0.07 each
These costs do forget though the cost of delivery, which using the cheapest delivery option in this case would cost £5.79.
Assuming that 4 packs of DVDs were brought so that you ended up with 100 DVDs and 100 cases the new cost each would be...
Cost of DVD: £0.27 each
Cost of case: £0.10 each
**Therefore, assuming that there is 1 DVD per case the actual cost is...
£0.37
Once VAT is added the final cost is...
£0.44**
So probably a lot of pointless calculations and a waste of half an hour later, but it gives a better idea as to how much it actually costs.
As for the cost of postage, apparently the collective weight of 100 DVDs + 100 cases is 10.41Kg, so if my maths is correct the weight per case & DVD is 0.104Kg. I'll let you work out the rest.
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