Another one…

More of those re-touched Series 4 scenes would be lovely, Grandizzy!! I always thought the Dunswater scene unnecessarily grey.

Just a bit of fun, really, but I will have to do some more when I get a chance.

What Series 4 does have in its favour, though, in my opinion, is a good mix of David Rowe-painted scenes, CGI animations (like the Swinging Axe chamber) and location recording.

I agree, it is a nice mix. I mean no disrespect at all to the creative team behind series 4. I really enjoyed the series. I'm just ultra-nostalgic about the first three series.

I suppose Tim Child's vision was always for Knightmare to be like a videogame, so I guess, technically, the show was merely fulfilling its original brief by moving more over to CGI.

It's just that I loved the "fantasy storybook" style of the earlier series.

One possible exception was the first forest trail after we obtained the Eye Shield, which always seemed pixellated and weirdly psychedelic.

LOL, yes, there is a fine line between a colourful fantasy world and, as you rightly put it, 'psychadelic'. Some of the pink and purple was a little heavy.

Hey, I've just realised you were a contestant! I will have to do some screens from team 8! LOL

May I ask a question about the filming, which I've always wondered? I presume there were lots of breaks in the shooting while the production crew prepared sets etc. I was wondering how often filming would be stopped, and roughly what was the ratio of break time to actual filming? And what happened during the breaks? Did Hugo keep silent/leave the set?

I'm not the biggest fan of the artistic changes from series 4 onwards—not just the move away from hand illustrations, but the move away from beauty and dramatic lighting, with everything looking slightly grittier and flatter, with more unnatural colours.

Since I'm a graphics guy, I thought it might be fun to reimagine how series 4 might have looked. I took a quick screen grab from YouTube and came up with a couple of alternatives. I really just did this for my own amusement but thought I'd share it here in case anyone else found it interesting Also because this forum could do with some threads!

Could it be Kellyvision from 1988? https://www.knightmare.com/articles/unseen/641-knightmare-on-kellyvision

Ah, yes! I'm pretty sure that was what I remembered! Thanks.

No idea where I got Rolf Harris from, although the computer graphics artist in the video is Robert Harris… so maybe that name lodged into my brain!? LOL

I'm all for innovation, and I applaud Tim Child for his convention-defying vision and bold ideas.

Don't get me wrong, I really did like series 4 onwards, and thought there were some great ideas. Really, it was just the visuals which I think let it down. Not only the move away from hand-illustration, but also the quality of the photo retouching. It looked so gritty, grainy, posterised, and sometimes had an unfortunate "freeze-frame" video look.

Another issue was the digital lighting. In the early series, I thought the digital lighting was excellent, making great use of light and shade, reminiscent of theatrical stage lighting. But in series 4 onwards, the lighting started to look "flat", as though it was a different guy doing the digital lighting.

Actually, perhaps you can answer another question I have… I swear I remember seeing a CITV documentary in the late 80s about digital effects, which (briefly) showed how they did the digital lighting on Knightmare. I'm sure it was hosted by Rolf Harris, though I could have got that wrong.

No matter how hard I search, I just can't find any trace of this documentary. This isn't helped by the Rolf Harris criminal scandal, which has consumed the search results.

Hey, thanks for the reply and warm welcome, Drassil

This forum seems to have gone quiet over the past couple of years. That's a shame! My heart beats just as strongly for Knightmare as it did 30 years ago, perhaps even stronger.

I guess those ever-elusive Knightmare DVDs are looking pretty unlikely now. Though at least we now live in an age where people can see episodes and documentaries on YouTube, if nothing else. I still have a few recordings from Challenge too.

I didn't know about Hordriss appearing in the Dizzy game! That's cool (The game is "Dizzy and Seymour - Kingdom Gems", apparently.)

I wasn't sure if anyone would recognise my username here, but I should have known this was exactly the place for it to be recognised! Knightmare… Dizzy… Catchphrase All beloved to computer lovers who grew up in the 80s LOL

As a musician myself, Ed Welch is such a hero to me. I actually hate all the subsequent re-arrangements of the Catchphrase theme tune! I also love all the short background tunes he made for the show. They were all so good.

I love Hordriss / Clifford Norgate. In particular, I love evil Hordriss, as I'm primarily a series 3 fan. I wish series 3 had ran for 8 series!

If we Knightmare fans are allowed to say "kids TV isn't as good as it used to be" then I should be fully entitled to say "Knightmare series 4–8 isn't as good as it used to be" LOL

There was so much good stuff in the later series, but the big thing for me is I didn't like the move away from hand-drawn illustrations. David Rowe's illustrations had a beauty that was lost with the switch to photography and CGI.

I adore the original 1987 theme tune, composed by the brilliant Ed Welch (Blockbusters, Catchphrase etc.). For me, this was the best and definitive version of the tune, and one of the things that made Knightmare so special.

In series 4, the theme tune was updated (this was many people's favourite version), and then updated again for series 6. But who was responsible for the updated themes?

I used to assume that Ed himself was behind all 3 versions, but now that I'm more familiar with his work, I don't think the later versions sound like his style. Plus, Ed's name is not in the credits from series 4 onwards. In fact, no credit is given for music.

Does anyone know?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag04-YONarQ

It was used in a manner of speaking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD0HtExsl4c

I have to say I absolutely adore that video. What a lovely tribute!

In some respects I enjoyed this 4-minute video far more than the new episode. Loads of wonderful room illustrations + Hugo in full swing = the real essence of Knightmare IMHO. David walking around his own rooms was ace! And great to see Hugo floating over the illustrations, which was missing from the new episode. And it was also interesting. And funny too, love his Granitas joke! A really lovely video, and glad to see David reached his goal so he can put his e-book together! Yay!

Well I think I have figured out now what bothered me about the new episode graphics, and what the solution is. David's original illustrations in this video all look absolutely fantastic, no doubt about that. I notice the textures can be quite strong in places (eg Merlin's floor) but as standalone illustrations they are perfect and will look great in the e-book. Vivid and engaging, as they should be. However, for use on the TV show, you also need the eye of a digital effects supervisor like Robert Harris (I remember seeing him on the Kellyvision special). It's only really when a digital guy starts looking at how the chroma-key effects appear on screen that he is able to make the subtle and necessary adjustments, softening details where necessary to make it all more "background-ish", softening strong floor detail and thus allowing the performers to stand out. These are nuances that need to be done digitally as they would be almost impossible for any illustrator to anticipate in advance. Therefore, for the new episode, I think this very subtle and almost imperceptible sensibility was missing: we need not only outstanding illustrations, but for people to make adjustments with regards to being well-balanced with the live-action. David Rowe is a "legend" (to use that word colloquially). But blokes like Robert Harris also played an essential role in bringing the illustrations to the TV screen. (All my humble opinion!)

Thanks for dropping by the forum again, GrandDizzy.

Thanks, Drassil. Great to be here. Obviously I'm not a regular, but occasionally I like to return , "entering" as a "stranger".

This may be the graphic that David has recently posted on Facebook.

Oh wow. Now you're talking! How sad that this vastly superior antechamber graphic wasn't used, I can only presume there weren't enough angles available for it to be used? I can think of no other logical reason. Shame.

It's lovely to see that David Rowe still has great affection for the programme and is proud of his work (which he should be), and that he was involved with the new episode to some degree. I really hope I haven't unwittingly criticised any of his work, since I have such respect for him. But I cannot deny that to my eyes those new rooms just seemed so starkly different in style to David's classic painted Knightmare backdrops.

The local chroma key expert was telling me that the dungeons actually have to look a bit fake or cartoonish. Apparently making them highly realistic produces a weird effect. I found it interesting that they actually have to worsen the digital environment. Perhaps that is the source of the digital noise you mention.

I would totally agree that the aim is definitely not for photo-realistic backdrops. That's because there will always be discrepancies between the live action and backgrounds (lighting, tone, contrast, sharpness etc.) and so the closer the background gets to photo-realism the more obvious these discrepancies become to the eye. So a slightly cartoony or stylised look is preferable. Also for the additional reason that we want to see the dungeoneer standing in a make-believe world. We don't want gritty reality, we want fantasy.

So my criticism of the graphics certainly wasn't that they lacked realism. I have a bunch of subtle criticisms but mostly that all the surfaces had a very strong and busy "noise" texture. I found it quite overwhelming and the dungeoneer is kind of "lost" amongst all the detail. Now I find it hard to imagine David Rowe having created these graphics (with the exception of Lord Fear's room, which was beautiful) because David's illustration always had surfaces that were soft, clean and elegant, really quite delicately painted and quite the opposite of this. (I suppose there is the possibility that David always used strong textures in his work which wasn't visible in SD but now is visible in HD?)

It's similar to when you paint backdrops for a stage production such as a pantomime: you generally don't use strong colours or large amounts of high contrast, you make everything softer and plainer, so that the performers really stand out against them. Same when I design backgrounds for catalogue pages. Colours have to be soft and not too distracting so that the products stand out

Well, this is all just my humble opinion. I am still really pleased with the episode, still happy that Knightmare came back. None of my criticisms represent a "thumbs down" from me. The whole thing is a triumph and I am really pleased. Knightmare is the best gameshow ever made.

To clarify, my "middle class" comment was mostly humorous. (Did no one notice the laughing smiley I put after it?) I might also have said contestants must be from Yorkshire (since there seemed to be so many Yorkshire teams in the early days).

I suppose what I was getting at with "middle class" was that the children on the show were usually quite well-read and well-educated and suitable for answering questions on popular mythology and literary fiction. In contrast, most young people today are far more familiar with pop culture than classic fiction and mythology, aside from what is popularised on screen. So, class aside, I think you need children who are fairly well educated.

Also, there litteracy skill's r like literally, alot more worser than what they where before I groan up. So they's might struggle too spellcast complicated woard's like "web" and "sun"

Well I have only just found out about this episode and only just watched it. I don't come here very often so I guess I'm not as much of a hardcore Knightmare fan as most of you. I haven't read through this thread yet but just want to post my thoughts about this episode.

OVERALL

Overall, while I was very excited about this, I find it a very odd mix of professional production values and distinctly amateur work. On a conscious level, I found that confusing; at the subconscious level I found it jarring. What am I watching here? A fan project or something professional? The episode itself didn't seem to know, and that was perhaps the biggest problem.

THINGS I LIKED

• First and foremost, SO wonderful to see Hugo back as Treguard once more!

• Solid performances from the guest cast.

• Excellent costumes.

• Great script which felt more or less just like classic Knightmare.

So all the elements were there for a great show. However, I'm afraid that most of what I have to say is criticisms. I am not writing this just to moan, I write it respectfully, as a fan, in a spirit of providing feedback so as to help improve any future productions.

CRITICISMS

• My biggest complaint of all was the backgrounds/graphics. Now I really don't like to be rude about other people's work, but I must be honest here and say I really did not like the graphics and that spoilt the whole thing for me. The rooms taken from original Knightmare artwork were covered with coarse digital noise and looked really ugly. As for the other rooms it all just looked really flat, blocky, aliased, plainly lit, covered with heavy noise, and basically everything just looked like cheap videogame graphics. Treguard's room was the worst. It just looks so unfinished and lacking in detail. There could at least have been an animated fire burning in the corner?

• There seemed to be no reverb at all on any of the mics. The classic series made good use of reverb to give that castle/dungeon feeling.

• There seemed to be very few sound effects (eg for the life force). That, to me, is an absolutely essential detail. Without sound effects, it just feels dead and lifeless. In the classic series, it always seemed to me that if there were a bit of an episode where not much was going on, they would show the life force for a few seconds just to give the scene a bit of "life" (excuse the pun).

• I found a lot of the camera framing highly questionable. One shot that comes to mind is near the beginning where Daisy is talking to the team and she is looking out of frame in profile. One of her eyes is hidden. Other shots place the team at the bottom of the screen with the ugliest of dead space above their heads.

• Many of the cameras are interlaced. Obviously a budget constraint but still a shame.

• Some very dodgy editing in places which I am sure most people picked up on. But also some subtle details such as Treguard giving important dialogue without cutting to a shot of him. Conversely, someone thought it was a good idea to show Daisy awkwardly squeezing between the chair and the wall?

• Also some timing issues with regards to people talking over each other, though that is less of a post-production issue and just needs lots of pre-planning.

• I really feel Treguard's room should be a real set. Even just a black, featureless room would have been better than this cheap-looking videogame room. IMHO, Treguard's room needs to have a strong sense of reality in order to provide the "anchor" to the real world, whilst the dungeoneer is out there walking around a fantasy world.

• While Hugo always was, and always will be, an outstanding performer, for some reason in this episode his voice and delivery seemed to lack the strong, harsh, deep and piercing quality he always used to have. He seemed a little placid during this shoot, though as for his voice seeming softer, I suspect that may be down to the micking.

• I did not like the choice of contestants. Now I don't mean that in a personal way, they were lovely people, I just don't think they were Knightmare material. First of all, they are probably the strangest most sinister-looking group of contestants I've probably ever seen on ANY gameshow. And that kind of defeats the object, because the show is supposed to be about taking a group of "normal, average people" (who are portraying the good guys) and putting them in amongst strange fantastical characters. But these contestants were so "un-average", they almost looked like part of the cast. I also thought these contestants were a little too cocky, jokey and familiar with Tregard. There was no sense of this being real with anything at stake. They feel like "relaxed videogame players" rather than "serious contestants".

SUGGESTION FOR THE CONTESTANTS

For future productions I think contestants should be chosen who:

1. Are "normal" looking. Plainly dressed, inconspicuous.

2. Of a serious and sensible disposition, who will show proper reverence and subordination towards Treguard the dungeonmaster

3. Really want to win, perhaps with a prize on offer of some significance.

4. Have been adequately prepared by the producers (and all staff) before shooting to make sure there is a serious and sober frame of mind, having had no contact with Hugo prior to shooting, and Hugo only speaking to them in character.

5. Perhaps a few common sense rules given out with serious emphasis. Don't talk to Treguard unless he speaks to you. Always follow his instructions. Don't make jokes.

6. It would be wonderful to get younger people on the show, perhaps children again. It's so much more engaging to watch contestants who almost believe it is real and get emotionally involved. And then there's the golden rule of gameshows which says the viewer always likes to think he's smarter than the contestants, which is easier when it's a bunch of kids playing

All this might seem unnecessary but for me one of the greatest strengths of the show was always its sense of "reality" and dramatic weight. Hugo's performance has always sent a chill down my spine (and I am surely not the only one) when he looks at the camera menacingly and tells you "It's only a game… isn't it?". For me, this is the heart of what makes Knightmare great, and this is totally undermined when you have contestants casually waltzing onto the show, smirking and making impromptu Monkey Island quips. All of Hugo's performing is just rendered trivial by this.

None of this is meant as an insult to these four contestants, whom I liked as people. I count myself among those who would not be suitable as a contestant because I am very jokey too. I don't think people like me should be on the show! The show needs to feel real. It needs contestants who are young, naive, nervous, and very, very middle-class

SUGGESTION FOR THE GRAPHICS

Finally, I don't know who did the graphics and I really don't wish to be rude, but if another episode is made, I think it would be very wise to ask the fan community for contributions, because there are people here who would have happily provided artwork that is arguably far more in line with classic Knightmare artwork. Alex Fruen is one such candidate (http://www.knightmare.com/fan-stuff/miscellaneous/1547-dungeon-design). And I am another, being a professional graphic designer with plenty of illustration in my portfolio.

Well, all of my criticism is given with love, as a fan. I hope I didn't cause any offense. Clearly, this wasn't a 100% professional collaboration and I assume a lot of fan effort went into making this episode. So even if the final result wasn't perfect, the effort is still appreciated nonetheless, especially the effort in actually bringing Knightmare back!

"When did Knightmare jump the shark"?

For me, this is a no-brainer. When I was 14 I saw the shark being jumped right before my eyes and I was very disappointed. It happened in series 4 when they suddenly went from using beautiful, atmospheric painted backdrops to instead using…

ARTIFICIALLY-COLOURED PHOTOS (I presume they were photos, though the quality was so poor it wouldn't surprise me if they were interlaced video stills).

All at once, the series went from beautiful to ugly. It went from exciting rooms you wanted to explore, to inhospitable rooms that just looked disgusting and (no pun intended) "nightmarish". And to be more specific, I will give you 6 exact reasons why I hated the photos…

1. To me, it looked REALLY cheap and obviously done to save money.

2. Using real photos completely removed all the sense of fantasy. It just looked grotty and imperfect. All the romance was gone.

3. The illustrations had always been beautifully lit, making them look dynamic and exciting. But the real-world locations (especially outdoor ones) were just plain and looked totally "flat".

4. While rooms had traditionally had natural, earthy colours, they were replaced with weird, unnatural colours (ie a LOT of purple). Yes, series 3 had started to use more vivid colours here and there, but it still always looked like you were on planet earth. When we get to series 4 though, suddenly everything was purple and looked like an alien world.

5. The images also looked "unnatural" in a different sense, not because of the choice of colours, but the way the photos had been altered. Now with a lot of care and skill it is possible to turn a photo of a castle purple and make it still look natural and realistic. However, when you do this crudely (and I'm not blaming the designer as I'm sure resources were limited) you just end up with something that looks artificial. It just looks like a bad effect.

6. Finally, the way the colour had been digitally changed drastically reduced the quality of the image. They used limited palettes, resulting in HEAVY loss of detail, colour banding, and general "murkiness". It just looked incredibly cheap and nasty, even to my 14-year-old eyes (and I dare say the eyes of most viewers).

I LIKED THE DWARF TUNNELS

Now for the record, I must say the dwarf tunnels (and mine cart) in series 3 never bothered me in the slightest, in fact I really liked them. So why did I like dwarf tunnels? My reasons are:

1. I adored the use of sound effect and music in them. It was incredibly atmospheric, and when they were first introduced I found them VERY exciting.

2. They were not "the actual game", just brief interludes to give a little variety and relief between rooms. (Had they played a larger part, I might have started to find them objectionable.)

3. They may not have been David Rowe illustrations, but they were still "computer illustrations" of a kind—as opposed to grotty real-life imagery.

4. The dwarf tunnels were visually attractive: clean, clear, and not washed out. They may not have used "natural tones" but at least the colours didn't look false.

So for me there was a definitive point when Knightmare really went downhill, and that was series 4. I am not saying I don't like the series after this, of course not. But the photos really spoilt it for me.

Or how about…

Eddie Van Halen recently released a pop album, but fans hated it, forcing him to return to his musical roots. Eddie was quoted as saying: "Rock I was, rock I now become."

Wow, 11 years since I first made this thread! That was nearer to the show's run than to the present day.

Let me see if I can think of a new Knightmare joke…

Man goes to the doctor: "Doctor, doctor! There's something seriously wrong with me. First, all my hair fell out, then I started losing my skin, and now even my bones are crumbling away!"

"Don't worry," says the Doctor, "I've seen this on Knightmare. As long as you have one eyeball left, you'll be fine. Here, have a banana."

Did you see the episode where a dungeoneer was killed by Adolph Hitler?

— All Treguard could say was: “Ooooh… Nazi!”

Oh and I also should mention I've done quite a bit of interactive/on-screen design and can produce animated DVD menus should they be required, so that's another thing that won't cost the project a penny. One thing I can't help with at all is restoring/enhancing the original video and sound quality (I know very little about colour correction, time base correction, etc.). I would imagine some enhancement work would be required to bring the episodes to life again after 20 years.

X Factor's Storm Lee also reminds me a little of Pickle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl_IA3oYqi8

As a huge fan of Knightmare, I'm sorry to say that I wouldn't be willing to pay £1 per episode for the full series. I would be willing to pay 50p each, which is £56 for the full series. If episodes were made available at £1 each, I would probably buy the first 3 or 4 series. In other words, I don't think I'd like to be spending much more than £50 on Knightmare DVDs. Sorry!

However, as a professional graphic designer, I would be more than happy to freely contribute any artwork or illustration needed for the DVDs. This would be my pleasure to work on. Artwork costs will therefore be £ zero. (There are probably other designers out there who have made the same offer, but I would still like to offer my own contribution, if only by coming up with a few rough visuals at the preliminary stages, or offering suggestions of improvement on another designer's work.)